Places to ask for help

[David3]

Wow, this thread is sure to scare off any new vegans. Paragraphs of conflicting information, with few substantiating sources.

The Vegetarian Resource Group, a vegan organization led by Registered Dietitians, has published this webpage regarding protein: Protein in the Vegan Diet -- The Vegetarian Resource Group .

The VRG recommends that adult male vegans get about 63 grams of protein per day, and that female vegans get 52 grams per day. For athletes, protein requirements are higher.

So, for those people on this forum claiming that you "don't need more than 40 to 50 grams" per day, please realize that you are likely incorrect, and that you are given bad advice to new vegans.

@V3G4N , at this point I would encourage you avoid the long-phrased, conflicting advice on this forum thread. Instead, please contact the Vegetarian Resource Group (The Vegetarian Resource Group (VRG)) for well-substantiated information about vegan nutrition.

 

[feather]

It is a diet that, for most people, is 10-15% fat, and 8-12% protein. For those who demonstrate vulnerability to health disorders, the fat intake should favor the lower side. Dr. Esselstyn (in his heart disease reversal study) and Dr. John McDougall (thousands of patients) have demonstrated this very clearly. The difficulty that we, as individuals, all face is really how vulnerable are we.

Fat and Plant-Based Diets - Center for Nutrition Studies

 

[Lou]

Wow, this thread is sure to scare off any new vegans. Paragraphs of conflicting information, with few substantiating sources.

The Vegetarian Resource Group, a vegan organization led by Registered Dietitians, has published this webpage regarding protein: Protein in the Vegan Diet -- The Vegetarian Resource Group .

The VRG recommends that adult male vegans get about 63 grams of protein per day, and that female vegans get 52 grams per day. For athletes, protein requirements are higher.

So, for those people on this forum claiming that you "don't need more than 40 to 50 grams" per day, please realize that you are likely incorrect, and that you are given bad advice to new vegans.

@V3G4N , at this point I would encourage you avoid the long-phrased, conflicting advice on this forum thread. Instead, please contact the Vegetarian Resource Group (The Vegetarian Resource Group (VRG)) for well-substantiated information about vegan nutrition.

um. I don't see any of this stuff conflicting.
I think it all fits into some general ideas.
for instance 60 grams of protein is just 12% of a 2000 calorie diet or 15% of a 1600 diet.

I am pretty sure a lot of the literature suggests higher protein numbers than 15% as well. especially for older adults and athletes.

Nutrition is not an exact science so you have to expect some variations.

 

[David3]

It is a diet that, for most people, is 10-15% fat, and 8-12% protein. For those who demonstrate vulnerability to health disorders, the fat intake should favor the lower side. Dr. Esselstyn (in his heart disease reversal study) and Dr. John McDougall (thousands of patients) have demonstrated this very clearly. The difficulty that we, as individuals, all face is really how vulnerable are we.

Fat and Plant-Based Diets - Center for Nutrition Studies

.
Unfortunately, this is what I'm talking about.

Although I'm a fan of Dr. John McDougall, his protein nutrition claims are inaccurate. We should not be quoting him. Much better information can be requested from the Registered Dietitians at the Vegetarian Resource Group, and at the Vegan Society.

In Dr. McDougall's April 2007 newsletter, he claimed that, "The World Health Organization (WHO) recommends that men and women obtain 5% of their calories as protein": The McDougall Newsletter . Dr. McDougall's statement is false - the WHO did not make this recommendation.

In the World Health Organization's exhaustively-detailed report, "Protein and Amino Acid Requirements in Human Nutrition", the WHO makes this statement (see page 242 of the full report, and the link below):

"The value accepted for the safe level of intake is 0.83 g/kg per day"

Link to full WHO report: https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/43411/WHO_TRS_935_eng.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y


For a 180 lb. (82 kg) man, this would be 68 grams of protein per day. Assuming a 2200 calorie/day diet, this equates to (68 grams protein) x (4 calories / gram protein) / 2200 calories = 12% of calories from protein. Assuming a 2500 calorie/day diet, this would still equate to 11% of calories from protein.

Dr. McDougall, and the various other popular vegan doctors, have done a lot to promote veganism. I appreciate that. However, they are not dietitians, and their claims should be evaluated relative to educated information from Registered Dietitians.

"

 

[feather]

David3, registered dieticians have it no better with their education than doctors, it's tied to industry money. New study: Big Food's ties to Registered Dietitians - Food Politics by Marion Nestle

Doctors that do medical research on behalf of disease and nutrition, while educated at institutions that have those same ties to industry, have dedicated their lives to bettering the human diet. They often have to go outside the 'accepted standards' offered by industry to get real answers. So then I guess you'll have to find one sentence to submit your disqualification of their words, for Esselstyn and Campbell too.

I've noticed that there are cranky people here, as well as saintly helpful information gatherers, and creative interesting exploratory people. The cranky people are starting to get to me and I'm new here. I'm not sure it's worth it for me.

 

[Lou]

So with all this discussion on protein numbers I went back to my favorite paper, Protein for Vegetarians. Its been a while since I re-read it and the one big takeaway that I got that was that the targets that I have for protein are too high.

We need only 2.5 to 11% of our calories as protein,
Protein and Amino Acid Requirements in Human Nutrition (PDF), World Health Organization (2002). Recommendations on p. 126. Recommendations are an "average requirement" of 0.66 g of protein per kg of ideal body weight, and a "safe level" of 0.86 g/kg.

The U.S. government's recommendation is 5-11%,
Dietary Reference Intakes for Energy, Carbohydrate, Fiber, Fat, Fatty Acids, Cholesterol, Protein, and Amino Acids, Food and Drug Administration, Institute of Medicine of the National Academies, 2005. (Protein Estimated Average Requirement and RDA for adults is 0.66 and 0.8g per kg of ideal body weight, respectively. These are married to the daily energy requirements listed in the same report for various genders, ages, heights, weights, and activity levels, to get the range of percentage of calories from protein.)

older adults doing either lower-body or whole-body resistance training increased their muscle strength and mass on the US RDA for protein of only 0.36 g per lb. of body weight.
Dietary protein adequacy and lower body versus whole body resistance training in older humans, Wayne W Campbell et al., J Physiol. 2002 July 15; 542(Pt 2): 631-642. doi: 10.1113/jphysiol.2002.020685

In 2009 three major health organizations endorsed the 0.5 to 0.8 g/lb. (1.2-1.7 g/kg) figures above (American Dietetic Association, Dietitians of Canada and the American College of Sports Medicine)1
Nutrition and Athletic Performance, joint position of the American Dietetic Association, Dietitians of Canada and the American College of Sports Medicine (March 2009)

THIS kind of discussion is exactly why I love the VF and its members.
If it wasn't for the disagreement I wouldn't have spent any more time with the numbers.
I don't think it really changes a whole lot of stuff. It's just the numbers I choose for Targets in CronOmeter. in my case it's just a few grams of protein a day.
I'm knocking my target of 20%P to 15%. It only changes it from 58 to 56g.
I know I could even go with a lower number but I'm pretty sure that for me anything in the 50s is good
enough. And I wouldn't want to go down to the 40s.
using the .5 g per pound formula my needs are 60 grams of protein a day. So I think in the real world we are all in the same ballpark.
BTW, I'm a very small male so the numbers for females are probably better for me.


With all that said, this is just the details. And not something I want to get worked up about. I know the expression, the devil is in the details. but I'll leave that to bridge builders and generals. I'm more of a Good Enough for government work or perhaps more eloquently, Don't let perfection be the enemy of good.

However, I still appreciate the clarity that this discussion has provoked. And I suppose these percentage points are more significant with people who are bigger and eat more than me.

 

[David3]

David3, registered dieticians have it no better with their education than doctors, it's tied to industry money. New study: Big Food's ties to Registered Dietitians - Food Politics by Marion Nestle

Doctors that do medical research on behalf of disease and nutrition, while educated at institutions that have those same ties to industry, have dedicated their lives to bettering the human diet. They often have to go outside the 'accepted standards' offered by industry to get real answers. So then I guess you'll have to find one sentence to submit your disqualification of their words, for Esselstyn and Campbell too.

I've noticed that there are cranky people here, as well as saintly helpful information gatherers, and creative interesting exploratory people. The cranky people are starting to get to me and I'm new here. I'm not sure it's worth it for me.

.
Feather, your cited article discusses the arguably unethical donations made by junk food companies to the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics (the world's largest association of Registered Dietitians). However, that is a corruption topic, not a dietitian education topic. I am not suggesting that McDougall's misinformation is stemming from corruption; I don't know his motivation.

It's inaccurate to say that registered dietitians have it no better with their education than doctors.

According to Walter Willett, professor of epidemiology and nutrition at Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, medical schools devote an average of only 19 hours of nutrition education during a four-year curriculum. Moreover, medical schools tend to focus on nutrition topics such as vitamin deficiency states, which is shortsighted given that diseases related to vitamin deficiencies aren’t a major problem in the U.S.: Why medical schools need to teach nutrition

In contrast, the university dietetic program at California State University Long Beach requires 15 nutrition classes, plus coursework in chemistry, biochemistry, anatomy, and food preparation: https://www.csulb.edu/sites/default/files/u65826/nutr_20-21.pdf


Unfortunately, I know that I am sometimes cranky on this forum. I ask you to call me out when I act like this. My issue that there is so much (good-intentioned) misinformation on public forums. Forums have become engines of misinformation.

 

[David3]

We need only 2.5 to 11% of our calories as protein,
Protein and Amino Acid Requirements in Human Nutrition (PDF), World Health Organization (2002). Recommendations on p. 126. Recommendations are an "average requirement" of 0.66 g of protein per kg of ideal body weight, and a "safe level" of 0.86 g/kg.

.
Lou, I'm looking at page 126 of your cited World Health Organization report (the same report that I cited). I can't find anything on that page saying that we only need 2.5% to 11% of calories from protein.

The cited WHO report's recommended "safe level" of protein of 0.86 g/kg (actually 0.83 g/kg, I think you typo'd) is exactly what I cited from the same report.

McDougall's 5% claim is wrong, as I demonstrated.
.

 

[David3]

The U.S. government's recommendation is 5-11%,
Dietary Reference Intakes for Energy, Carbohydrate, Fiber, Fat, Fatty Acids, Cholesterol, Protein, and Amino Acids, Food and Drug Administration, Institute of Medicine of the National Academies, 2005. (Protein Estimated Average Requirement and RDA for adults is 0.66 and 0.8g per kg of ideal body weight, respectively. These are married to the daily energy requirements listed in the same report for various genders, ages, heights, weights, and activity levels, to get the range of percentage of calories from protein.)

.
Lou, this link doesn't open.

Here is the up-to-date link from the Food and Nutrition Board, Institute of Medicine, National Academies: - Dietary Reference Intakes for Calcium and Vitamin D - NCBI Bookshelf

Per this link, the U.S. government's protein recommendation is 0.8 grams of protein per kg of body weight (see footnote "b"). This the same as the WHO's recommendation, which equates to ~ 11% of calories from protein).

McDougall's 5% recommendation is wrong.

Can you see why I get frustrated with public forums???? I wish I could tell all new vegans to ignore public forums, and to instead directly contact the Vegan Society, the Vegetarian Resource Group, or other groups with on-staff dietitians.
.

 

[David3]

older adults doing either lower-body or whole-body resistance training increased their muscle strength and mass on the US RDA for protein of only 0.36 g per lb. of body weight.
Dietary protein adequacy and lower body versus whole body resistance training in older humans, Wayne W Campbell et al., J Physiol. 2002 July 15; 542(Pt 2): 631-642. doi: 10.1113/jphysiol.2002.020685

.
0.36 g per lb. of body weight is (0.36 g / lb) x (2.2 lbs / kg) = 0.79 g per kg of body weight.

This is nearly identical to the WHO's recommendation of 0.83 g / kg.

 

[David3]

In 2009 three major health organizations endorsed the 0.5 to 0.8 g/lb. (1.2-1.7 g/kg) figures above (American Dietetic Association, Dietitians of Canada and the American College of Sports Medicine)1
Nutrition and Athletic Performance, joint position of the American Dietetic Association, Dietitians of Canada and the American College of Sports Medicine (March 2009)

.
This link doesn't open.

Your cited 1.2 - 1.7 grams of protein per kg of body weight is higher than the WHO's recommendation of 0.83 grams of protein per kg of body weight. This is appropriate; these higher protein recommendations are for athletes.

The American Council on Exercise agrees with your cited protein recommendations from the American College of Sports Medicine: 1.2 to 1.7 g/kg for strength athletes( and 1.2 to 1.4 g/kg for endurance athletes): How Much Protein Do We Actually Need?


Again, Dr. McDougall should not be telling people that 5% of calories from protein is sufficient (as he does in his newsletter: The McDougall Newsletter). This equates to ~ 0.4 grams of protein per kg of body weight. Too low.

 

[silva]

The discussion here is on nutrition. Plant based nutrition
We really should stop referring to it as 'vegan diet'. A vegans diet abstains from animal products--there is nothing else implied when you say vegan. If discussing sugar, bone char is relevant, not whether sugar is healthy or not.

Of course there's differing opinions on macros, or whether oil is ok. It's nutrition!

The easiest way to know you're getting a good days nutrition in is to follow Dr Gregers daily dozen.If you really want to nitpick that's up to you, it's really set up to leave room for other foods. Tweak as you want.

Here it is in a nutshell:
Whole plant foods-nothing bad added, nothing good removed

 

[V3G4N]

Good day !
I apologise if I am asking too many questions and/or am annoying you, just trying to make it the healthiest I can.
We managed to get some seeds and made a mix out of chia, flax, hemp, sesame, poppy, pumpkin, quinoa, sunflower and pine.
(now, according to CronOmeter, I have 105% the daily required amount of Omega-3)

I noticed the discussion on protein; should I reduce it from 25% to 20% ?
Though carbs would end up being quite high, this would make the %macro ratios: P20, C70, F10.
As I said, I think I should keep fat on the low-ish side. Would this ratio be healthy ?
Also, are nuts necessary ? (if yes, then perhaps in a very low amount/day, similar to seeds ? Which type of nut then ?)
Is eating brown rice cakes the same as eating brown rice ?
I am also asking because, as I mentioned, I don't want to stress my kidneys, liver, etc. too much and also due to the discussion about protein from before.

Here is something else I found, can this be considered a valid source of information on the topic ?

How Long Does It Take To Lose Weight on a Vegan Diet? - I Am Going Vegan

18 Tips for Vegan Weight Loss Without Counting Calories - I Am Going Vegan

at this point I would encourage you avoid the long-phrased, conflicting advice on this forum thread. Instead, please contact the Vegetarian Resource Group (The Vegetarian Resource Group (VRG)) for well-substantiated information about vegan nutrition.

Or perhaps I should just do this.

 

[V3G4N]

The Vegetarian Resource Group (VRG)

Or perhaps I should just do this.

That is...quite a lot of information.

 

[feather]

Good day !
I apologise if I am asking too many questions and/or am annoying you, just trying to make it the healthiest I can.
We managed to get some seeds and made a mix out of chia, flax, hemp, sesame, poppy, pumpkin, quinoa, sunflower and pine.
(now, according to CronOmeter, I have 105% the daily required amount of Omega-3)

I noticed the discussion on protein; should I reduce it from 25% to 20% ?
Though carbs would end up being quite high, this would make the %macro ratios: P20, C70, F10.
As I said, I think I should keep fat on the low-ish side. Would this ratio be healthy ?
Also, are nuts necessary ? (if yes, then perhaps in a very low amount/day, similar to seeds ? Which type of nut then ?)
I am also asking because, as I mentioned, I don't want to stress my kidneys, liver, etc. too much and also due to the discussion about protein from before.

Here is something else I found, can this be considered a valid source of information on the topic ?

How Long Does It Take To Lose Weight on a Vegan Diet? - I Am Going Vegan

18 Tips for Vegan Weight Loss Without Counting Calories - I Am Going Vegan

Or perhaps I should just do this.

I was once a new comer to all this information, 2.5 years ago. It was frustrating.
I got the book, The China Study, get that book, it is really good, and then Whole. While I was looking dizzily for information, I saw the potato man in australia, and mc dougall's mary's mini, eating potatoes upon potatoes won't hurt you and you'll be well on your way to following a whole food plant based diet. That way I could eat, and also read and learn at the same time. So I ate potatoes, kept reading, ate potatoes, kept reading, after about 2 weeks of immersing myself in the information and not getting side tracked by trying to find food (because I just ate potatoes), I'd started feeling better and losing weight. It was that simple and of course, you'll want more variety in the long run.

Plant foods like grain, have some amino acids, but root vegetables have all the essential ones. So potatoes are a complete food except for B12. Not that you would want to, but you could survive on potatoes until you find other acceptable choices for foods in good proportions.

It's kind of the opposite way of looking at eating a healthy diet, start simple, expand as you know more, instead of trying to know all of it up front and get overwhelmed with information and the daily 'what can I eat' issue.

 

[silva]

Good day !
I apologise if I am asking too many questions and/or am annoying you, just trying to make it the healthiest I can.
We managed to get some seeds and made a mix out of chia, flax, hemp, sesame, poppy, pumpkin, quinoa, sunflower and pine.
(now, according to CronOmeter, I have 105% the daily required amount of Omega-3)

I noticed the discussion on protein; should I reduce it from 25% to 20% ?
Though carbs would end up being quite high, this would make the %macro ratios: P20, C70, F10.
As I said, I think I should keep fat on the low-ish side. Would this ratio be healthy ?
Also, are nuts necessary ? (if yes, then perhaps in a very low amount/day, similar to seeds ? Which type of nut then ?)
Is eating brown rice cakes the same as eating brown rice ?
I am also asking because, as I mentioned, I don't want to stress my kidneys, liver, etc. too much and also due to the discussion about protein from before.

Here is something else I found, can this be considered a valid source of information on the topic ?

How Long Does It Take To Lose Weight on a Vegan Diet? - I Am Going Vegan

18 Tips for Vegan Weight Loss Without Counting Calories - I Am Going Vegan

Or perhaps I should just do this.

You first need to realize you're asking a group that largely isn't as obsessed with perfect nutrition as what you aspire.
Do your own research from well referenced and unbiased sources.

Dr Michael Greger--How Not to Die, How Not to Diet.

NutritionFacts.org | The Latest Nutrition Related Topics

Colin Campbell- China Study, Whole
Idiots Guide to a Plant Based Diet. Julieanna Hever, Registered Dietician

Food for Life

Join the Food Revolution: Science-Based Nutrition for Life

The sources you linked are not scientifically sound , but rather based on the trends of weight loss

I highly recommend Dr Gregers books. Check your library

 

[Lou]

I was once a new comer to all this information, 2.5 years ago. It was frustrating.
I got the book, The China Study, get that book, it is really good, and then Whole. While I was looking dizzily for information, I saw the potato man in australia, and mc dougall's mary's mini, eating potatoes upon potatoes won't hurt you and you'll be well on your way to following a whole food plant based diet. That way I could eat, and also read and learn at the same time. So I ate potatoes, kept reading, ate potatoes, kept reading, after about 2 weeks of immersing myself in the information and not getting side tracked by trying to find food (because I just ate potatoes), I'd started feeling better and losing weight. It was that simple and of course, you'll want more variety in the long run.

Plant foods like grain, have some amino acids, but root vegetables have all the essential ones. So potatoes are a complete food except for B12. Not that you would want to, but you could survive on potatoes until you find other acceptable choices for foods in good proportions.

It's kind of the opposite way of looking at eating a healthy diet, start simple, expand as you know more, instead of trying to know all of it up front and get overwhelmed with information and the daily 'what can I eat' issue.

I should eat more potatoes!

The funny thing is that before I went vegan I ate potatoes 10 times a week. Baked potatoes, French fries, hash browns, tater tots (and I'm not counting the 2 bags of potato chips I went thru each week).

Now I probably average a potato a week.

potato are great. If you are stranded on Mars you can survive on potatoes and vitamins.

I did not have a strategy when I went vegan. and when I went WFPB I was already vegan so my strategy was mostly based on subtraction. come to think of it, if you could call it a strategy, that was how I went vegan too.

In Dr. Fuhrman's book he strongly suggests that people read the book (or at least the first half) before they attempt his diet. and he has a sample meal plan to follow, too. Maybe too structured for some people but I like that idea.

Oh, and I read the China Study very early on. So my memory of it is a little fuzzy. I'm not even sure I finished it. It didn't do anything for me. Maybe I'll take it out of the library again.

 

[silva]

I should eat more potatoes!

The funny thing is that before I went vegan I ate potatoes 10 times a week. Baked potatoes, French fries, hash browns, tater tots (and I'm not counting the 2 bags of potato chips I went thru each week).

Now I probably average a potato a week.

potato are great. If you are stranded on Mars you can survive on potatoes and vitamins.

I did not have a strategy when I went vegan. and when I went WFPB I was already vegan so my strategy was mostly based on subtraction. come to think of it, if you could call it a strategy, that was how I went vegan too.

In Dr. Fuhrman's book he strongly suggests that people read the book (or at least the first half) before they attempt his diet. and he has a sample meal plan to follow, too. Maybe too structured for some people but I like that idea.

Oh, and I read the China Study very early on. So my memory of it is a little fuzzy. I'm not even sure I finished it. It didn't do anything for me. Maybe I'll take it out of the library again.

I believe feather was mostly referring to the concept of retraining your taste buds to adapt to a wfpb no oil no sugar diet.
Mary McDougall formulated the "marys mini" where you pick a starch and use it as your main food source for, I believe, two weeks. You still eat other produce, but that starch comprises your main source of calories and everything you eat is bland. I didn't follow for the whole two weeks, but it really did help me in finding satisfaction and flavor in whole foods.
I need to do this because I keep going back to processed foods

 

[feather]

Actually, it was a strategy for me. My blood pressure was high, so if I stuffed a potato in my mouth whenever hunger hit, I was satiated, and I could move on to more important things. Things like learning what the heck I was doing. It is a potato punishing exercise in doing no wrong, or over doing any one part of a new way of eating. It did lower my blood pressure after I lost weight. We (2) still eat about 5-10 lb of potatoes a week, mostly as wedges sometimes mashed or mashed and crisped up in the oven. If you mash then add chunks of mushrooms and onions, make them in a medium thin patty, they are wonderful, we call them potato steaks. Or scoop up mashed with a scooper for cookie dough, bake on parchment, we call those potato puffs.

 

[feather]

Lou, I thought it was interesting, how the high protein (casein in this case) diet promoted the liver cancer in rats/mice? at 20% but stopped the progression of cancer at 5%. There have been more studies about how protein promotes the cancer, and fat is the vehicle it moves about--I think it was Greger, nutritionfacts.org in a video about metastasizing cancer he put out recently.