Eating eggs from a rescued backyard hen?

[Graeme M]

"No she wanted it, she never said no". This is a very suspect line of reasoning.

Only if you extrapolate it to completely different contexts... oh wait, you did.

I'm a little surprised with where this thread has gone. The OP was not about the general condition of backyard chickens but about a rescued chicken. The main objection to backyard chickens is not to do with their eggs, but that by buying chickens from producers to eat their eggs, the buyer is simply substituting one exploitive system for another. Sure, maybe backyard chickens have better lives and that's a good thing, but it's still largely violating the fundamental premise of veganism.

In the case of a rescued chicken, the rescuer (even if money was involved) has taken a different role. They haven't rescued the chicken in order to perpetuate the exploitive system of commercial hen and egg production. The intention was different (unless, I guess, that actually was their intention - to rescue a chicken so as to eat her eggs). As a rescue, the owner is not participating in economic demand for more chickens, if the chicken is well looked after it doesn't need to eat its own egg, and the chicken doesn't care that its egg was taken. I really don't see how in this particular context, there is anything unethical about eating the eggs.

 

[hitty]

Only if you extrapolate it to completely different contexts... oh wait, you did.

Ah, but I didn't. Someone's internal states and their external expressions are not necessarily the same, and our abilities to correctly read those expressions, let alone the internal states behind them, are highly questionable. To then extrapolate from the latter to the former when it suits you is arrogant and sure to cause harm. No matter the context.

 

[g0rph]

It's fine to disagree and have differing lines when it comes to morality.
Morality at its core is essentially subjective*
Everyone on this thread (I think) abstains from meat, dairy and almost all eggs. As well as leather, silk, wool etc etc.
Our differences are FAR smaller than our similarities.

So resorting to straw-men, changing the goalposts, misrepresentation, bad analogies and plain emotional nonsense is not discussing in good faith. It's one reason /r/vegan is so toxic. And one reason I ignored one person for now.

The stupid thing about all this is I reckon if we all met up for a beer, we would get on like a house on fire. These topics do tend to evoke emotional rather than logical responses

But, yeah, we all have our own interpretations of the ethics of veganism. And nobody likely has it right to 100%...


*Subjective at its core.
I assume we all agree that "Suffering is bad" / "Well-being is good"? After that it's only humans that can even discuss morality in more detail and agree on rules for society or cultural ethics.

 

[Tillimint]

I apologize in advance for the weird formatting, I cannot figure out this quoting thing!

Being vegan is much more than just a diet that's in many ways ethically superior. I don't even find it superior, it just feels natural for me.

I agree, that very chicken is certainly not harmed by having her eggs taken. (Though I heard some people feed the eggs to the rescue hens so that they don't end up with Ca-deficiency after laying so many eggs in a row.) Yet this practice still does perpetuate this circle of abuse.
If you give the message "oh, eating eggs is okay", people in your environment are going to continue buying eggs. Please do believe me, they will not restrict their intake to accepting those eggs laid by the backyard hen (who would not even have come to life, had it not been for the chicken industry). So, in an indirect way, this is probably going to contribute to even more animal abuse.

While I do think employing underpaid workers at grocery gardens to be immoral - this is another question. We cannot compare one immoral thing to another.
Also, it's mostly underpaid migrant workers who have no other choices than accepting the job offers of slaughterhouses.

I used to be ovo-lacto, but after a certain time I stopped and wondered: what is so enjoyable about those eggs? For me, it is enough to think about where the eggs come from (they use the same route as the birds' excrement) and I don't even have a desire for eggs any more.

While I understand your concern about normalizing eating eggs, I think that this rescue hen situation could actually lead omnis towards thinking more critically about the food they eat. From my experience, just being a Vegan doesn't do much to convince those around you to become Vegans, and evangelizing about it often makes things worse. The choice to consume eggs from this hen could lead people to think of this person as more moderate, making it easier to open a dialogue. A conversation about why a vegan would choose to eat eggs in this specific situation might well be a way to ease people into thinking more about the harms that vegans consider when they choose not to consume animal products, without the person feeling attacked as people often do when discussing plant-based diets. Even if such a discussion wasn't successful, I find it unlikely that someone considering a switch to veganism would be dissuaded by this very specific situation.

I also want to clarify that I'm not saying that because the vegetable industry is harmful in many ways, we can use this to justify any other harms in the food system. Rather, what I'm trying to get at is that just because the harms of eating plant-based foods are not as visible, doesn't mean they aren't there, meaning ethical consumption is near impossible.

I don't think these are separate issues, if she doesn't eat the eggs, then she will eat something else, and the ethical implications of where that something else comes from are absolutely relevant here.

 

[hitty]

Your argument seems to be that vegans going vegetarian might make more people switch to vegetarianism, and then some day maybe veganism, is that right?

 

[Tillimint]

Your argument seems to be that vegans going vegetarian might make more people switch to vegetarianism, and then some day maybe veganism, is that right?

Not exactly, what I'm saying is generally engaging in discussion that allows for nuance and doesn't make omnis feel attacked is a better strategy for moving the most people towards vegetarianism and veganism.

I don't think vegans need to be vegetarian for this generally, although this specific situation involves eating eggs (specifically from the rescue hen, not the store). In other words, the harm caused by eating these specific eggs is so minimal that it is worth doing it to start beneficial dialogues that may lead to more people eating plant-based diets.

 

[hitty]

Not exactly, what I'm saying is generally engaging in discussion that allows for nuance and doesn't make omnis feel attacked is a better strategy for moving the most people towards vegetarianism and veganism.

I don't think vegans need to be vegetarian for this generally, although this specific situation involves eating eggs (specifically from the rescue hen, not the store). In other words, the harm caused by eating these specific eggs is so minimal that it is worth doing it to start beneficial dialogues that may lead to more people eating plant-based diets.

Instead of them feeling attacked, we abuse the hen just a little bit more? I don't see how that helps anyone. What you need is a critical mass of vegans in one place, to make the market switch to vegan products locally, and then that spreads outward. That's how these things usually go when we look at game theory. It's hard because humans are irrational hedonists.

 

[shyvas]

Enjoy the eggs, perfect morality is an impossible standard and I would argue that this is one of the least objectionable ways you could get food in a modern economy - second only to growing vegetables.

Says a vegetarian. Vegans do not consume eggs.

 

[g0rph]

Tillimint said:


Enjoy the eggs, perfect morality is an impossible standard and I would argue that this is one of the least objectionable ways you could get food in a modern economy - second only to growing vegetables.

Says a vegetarian. Vegans do not consume eggs.

I think you should close this thread. Two fallacies in 8 words. Impressive.
This reply to Tillimint is both an Ad hominem (pointing out a trait of the messenger to try to discredit the message) and a Strawman (I haven't seen anywhere that they claimed eating eggs was vegan)

 

[shyvas]

I think you should close this thread. Two fallacies in 8 words. Impressive.
This reply to Tillimint is both an Ad hominem (pointing out a trait of the messenger to try to discredit the message) and a Strawman (I haven't seen anywhere that they claimed eating eggs was vegan)

If i close this thread, you are going to complain. This forum isn't heavily moderated and various opinions and banter are most welcome. After all you are all debating whether consuming eggs is ethical for vegans.

There is nothing that I consider to be as an attack saying that a vegetarian eat eggs; it's a plain fact. What I don't agree with is the phrase that I highlighted and have every right to also voice my opinion ; i.e. vegans don't consume eggs and there is not one single valid reason to do so.

If a simple fact is going to annoy you, why bother to participate in a debate. Please note that this is a question and not a personal attack.

 

[g0rph]

If i close this thread, you are going to complain. This forum isn't heavily moderated and various opinions and banter are most welcome. After all you are all debating whether consuming eggs is ethical for vegans.

There is nothing that I consider to be as an attack saying that a vegetarian eat eggs; it's a plain fact. What I don't agree with is the phrase that I highlighted and have every right to also voice my opinion ; i.e. vegans don't consume eggs and there is not one single valid reason to do so.

If a simple fact is going to annoy you, why bother to participate in a debate. Please note that this is a question and not a personal attack.

I think we are debating whether eating certain eggs is ethical. It definitely isn't vegan.
And yes, a vegetarian eats eggs.
But you pointed out that someone is vegetarian as a way of discrediting a point. That's a logical fallacy called an ad hominem.

And you saying "Vegans don't eat eggs"...whilst 100% true, is irrelevant. The point isn't whether vegans eat eggs or not, it's whether it can be considered "ethical".

I love a debate, but not when it turns to logically unsound or emotionally biased non-arguments.

My own view.

Eating some eggs can be ethical
Eating any eggs is not vegan.
The second point is not relevant.

So your post...

"Says a vegetarian. Vegans do not consume eggs."

was "Attack the trait to undermine the point" and "infer that the person said something they hadn't"

So all in all, fairly pointless.

And I ain't having a go at you personally, just one post which irritated me.

And now it's time to go buy some beers for tonight.
Happy weekend!

 

[shyvas]

And I ain't having a go at you personally, just one post which irritated me.

I didn't take it personally. I was just voicing my opinion. However, these kind of debates are not my cup of tea. I'm off to do some animal rights activism which to my mind, is more uplifting.

 

[g0rph]

I didn't take it personally. I was just voicing my opinion. However, these kind of debates are not my cup of tea. I'm off to do some animal rights activism which to my mind, is more uplifting.

I wish I could.
I'd end up alone and probably insane living in a hut in the woods and shouting at trees.

 

[shyvas]

I wish I could.
I'd end up alone and probably insane living in a hut in the woods and shouting at trees.

Rest assured we rarely shout.

 

[PTree15]

I apologize in advance for the weird formatting, I cannot figure out this quoting thing!



While I understand your concern about normalizing eating eggs, I think that this rescue hen situation could actually lead omnis towards thinking more critically about the food they eat.

I know I am cherry-picking here, but I find IRL that this is not the case. It's similar, IMHO, to the "happy meat" argument. I have a friend who justifies eating dead flesh because it's "ethically raised." So yeah, it's not factory-farmed flesh, but it's still dead flesh, and it hasn't moved the needle toward her even thinking about vegetarianism or veganism. This sort of thinking lets her continue eating animals and their products guilt-free in her mind. I know in the egg case the chicken doesn't die, so while it may be "ethical" in someone's mind to eat the egg, it's still humans using animals for their own purposes. So they think about the source of their food, but they don't think about ending their consumption of said food.

 

[g0rph]

I know I am cherry-picking here, but I find IRL that this is not the case. It's similar, IMHO, to the "happy meat" argument. I have a friend who justifies eating dead flesh because it's "ethically raised." So yeah, it's not factory-farmed flesh, but it's still dead flesh, and it hasn't moved the needle toward her even thinking about vegetarianism or veganism. This sort of thinking lets her continue eating animals and their products guilt-free in her mind. I know in the egg case the chicken doesn't die, so while it may be "ethical" in someone's mind to eat the egg, it's still humans using animals for their own purposes. So they think about the source of their food, but they don't think about ending their consumption of said food.

Apologies in advance for raising this discussion up again

I think the "happy meat" argument is quite different. You still have to take an animal, slaughter them and cut them up.
As opposed to an animal that has been saved from this in regard to rescued hens.
What happens to the eggs after doesn't add or take away anything from the chicken in welfare terms.

And as an aside... Before I went vegan I had been only buying organic, free-to roam etc etc meat. Whilst it isn't "happy" in any sense of the word, it can be an indication someone is starting to consider the source of their food and it's impact on animal welfare.

 

[LoreD]

I've been vegan for 40+ years, and I think that sometimes people get a little over vigilant. If there is no physical harm to the chicken; I don't see the problem. I, personally, wouldn't eat it because I don't like eggs, but if the chicken is a rescue; no harm has been caused.

I don't get into these purity test battles.

 

[PTree15]

I've been vegan for 40+ years, and I think that sometimes people get a little over vigilant. If there is no physical harm to the chicken; I don't see the problem. I, personally, wouldn't eat it because I don't like eggs, but if the chicken is a rescue; no harm has been caused.

I don't get into these purity test battles.

This isn't a purity test issue. To me, the purity issue is more about other ingredients that some consider minor. That said, the bottom line is that eating eggs, regardless of how they get to the plate, isn't vegan. As I said originally, I know that the chicken doesn't die in this case, but it's still humans using animals for their own purposes. Ethical or not it's not vegan, which is what the OP basically wanted to know.

 

[g0rph]

This isn't a purity test issue. To me, the purity issue is more about other ingredients that some consider minor. That said, the bottom line is that eating eggs, regardless of how they get to the plate, isn't vegan. As I said originally, I know that the chicken doesn't die in this case, but it's still humans using animals for their own purposes. Ethical or not it's not vegan, which is what the OP basically wanted to know.

The OP asked

Is it ethically acceptable to eat eggs from a rescued backyard hen?

The answer to that, IMO, is yes. No, not vegan. But yes, ethical. And if a person wants to keep calling themselves vegan whilst partaking in these eggs, quite frankly, I don't care.
In fact I really detest the vegan police.

 

[PTree15]

The OP asked

Is it ethically acceptable to eat eggs from a rescued backyard hen?

The answer to that, IMO, is yes. No, not vegan. But yes, ethical. And if a person wants to keep calling themselves vegan whilst partaking in these eggs, quite frankly, I don't care.
In fact I really detest the vegan police.

The OP also asked:
Is it possible to hold vegan values while doing this, or would it still be considered non-vegan?

I'm not a fan of the vegan police, either, but veganism, despite efforts by some to change the definition to suit their desires (not you, g0rph, just something I see in general online), doesn't include eating animals or products derived from them. That is not in dispute, regardless of cruelty, as it is also a commodification issue. And veganism aims to avoid commodification of animals as well as cruelty.