News Israel bombing Gaza again

[das_nut]

It's sickening that the US and indeed other supposedly civilized nations support this.

Last I checked, Israel wasn't that fond of the US's behavior in the peace process. Just look at what they are saying about Kerry.

The US wants a peace fire. Israel wants to continue their attack. The goals of the two nations are diverging, which is troublesome for Israel since the US was its major supporter.

But I don't think it'll have much effect - there's still a powerful enough Israeli lobby in the US to ensure funding in the legislative branch, and Obama really isn't a heavy hitter in foreign policy.

 

[Blobbenstein]

all this stuff about Hamas tunnels; is there really a problem with tunnels, or is that just a myth perpetuated by their media and politics?

I suppose the war against Hamas wins votes in Israel? And sells papers?

 

[Second Summer]

Last I checked, Israel wasn't that fond of the US's behavior in the peace process. Just look at what they are saying about Kerry.

The US wants a peace fire. Israel wants to continue their attack. The goals of the two nations are diverging, which is troublesome for Israel since the US was its major supporter.

But I don't think it'll have much effect - there's still a powerful enough Israeli lobby in the US to ensure funding in the legislative branch, and Obama really isn't a heavy hitter in foreign policy.

The criticism of Israeli aggression by the Obama administration and other western governments is only talk, and not very serious talk at that. The Obama administration has limited influence over US foreign policy, as you mentioned, and the Israelis know this very well.

If they were serious, if they were truly concerned for the civilians, then there would be consequences for Israel. The US could withhold the billions in annual foreign aid. They could put the brakes on arms sales to Israel. Europe could boycott Israeli products. Etcetera. There are a lot that could be done to force Israel to abide by international law, but there is no political will to do so. I guess mainly because of the special, very cosy relationship between the US and Israel, and because Europe is still dependent on the US for protection against the Big Bad Bear.

 

[Envy]

Well, many people still see Israel as the last bastion against the big meany Muslims, so I guess they aren't that keen on denouncing them entirely.

 

[Second Summer]

Well, many people still see Israel as the last bastion against the big meany Muslims, so I guess they aren't that keen on denouncing them entirely.

Which seems ironic, because the Israel-Palestine conflict is one of the main reasons for radicalisation of Muslims, resulting in hatred against both Jews and western countries.

 

[Clueless Git]

Well, many people still see Israel as the last bastion against the big meany Muslims, so I guess they aren't that keen on denouncing them entirely.

Worse. The last bastion would suggest that before there were more bastions.

Israel was created as an American/Western bastion in an area where before there were none.

To some extent it is fair to say that the creation of Israel was no more, or less, about giving the Jews a homeland than it was about giving America a military base in the Middle East.

 

[Clueless Git]

all this stuff about Hamas tunnels; is there really a problem with tunnels, or is that just a myth perpetuated by their media and politics?

On balance of probability alone ..

Israel has had Palestine blockaded, under full siege conditions, for a considerable period of time.

Stuff still gets into Palestine though.

With the air and sea routes controlled by the Israelis the likelihood that tunnels into Palestine exist is very very high.

 

[Blobbenstein]

With the air and sea routes controlled by the Israelis the likelihood that tunnels into Palestine exist is very very high.

but that would be about smuggling stuff into Gaza, rather than attacking Israel...?

 

[rainforests1]

I recall huge amounts of sympathy for the United States after September 11. Governments seem very quiet about sympathy towards Palestinians though. The true character of Western governments.

The criticism of Israeli aggression by the Obama administration and other western governments is only talk, and not very serious talk at that. The Obama administration has limited influence over US foreign policy, as you mentioned, and the Israelis know this very well.

If they were serious, if they were truly concerned for the civilians, then there would be consequences for Israel. The US could withhold the billions in annual foreign aid. They could put the brakes on arms sales to Israel. Europe could boycott Israeli products. Etcetera. There are a lot that could be done to force Israel to abide by international law, but there is no political will to do so. I guess mainly because of the special, very cosy relationship between the US and Israel, and because Europe is still dependent on the US for protection against the Big Bad Bear.

Sanctions would be another option. The United States loves putting sanctions against countries they don't like.

 

[ledboots]

Worse. The last bastion would suggest that before there were more bastions.

Israel was created as an American/Western bastion in an area where before there were none.

To some extent it is fair to say that the creation of Israel was no more, or less, about giving the Jews a homeland than it was about giving America a military base in the Middle East.

Well, the British controlled the Palestinian territories until 1947, when they turned the problem over to the UN, but feel free to keep blaming the US. Who was going to take the European Jews who survived the holocaust after WWII? England? France? Germany? The US? Lol.
________
Wiki:
"At the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire following World War I, the victorious European states divided many of its component regions into newly created states under League of Nations mandates according to deals that had been struck with other interested parties.[7] In the Middle East, Syria (including the Ottoman autonomous Christian Lebanon and the surrounding areas that became the Republic of Lebanon) came under French control, while Mesopotamia, and Palestine (including what became Jordan and Israel) were allotted to the British.

Most of these states achieved independence during the following three decades without great difficulty, though in some regimes, the colonial legacy continued through the granting of exclusive rights to market/manufacture oil and maintain troops to defend it. However, the case of Palestine remained problematic.

Arab nationalism was on the rise after World War II, possibly following the example of European nationalism. Pan-Arabist beliefs called for the creation of a single, secular state for all Arabs."

_________
Personally, I think the US should close most of its military bases around the world, starting with bringing home the many troops we have in Germany.

 

[Clueless Git]

Who was going to take the European Jews who survived the holocaust after WWII? England? France? Germany? The US? Lol.

A false dilemma of monumental proportions there, Ledders.

Pre holocaust England, France, Germany, the US and many other countries were home to Jewish people.

Post holocaust none of those countries refused to continue being a home to the Jews.

The dilemma of holocaust survivors having no countries to take them is therefore monumentaly false.

 

[Clueless Git]

but that would be about smuggling stuff into Gaza, rather than attacking Israel...?

There's more than one consideration there Blobbers ..

First, the Israeli blockade of Gazza is partly to stop stuff that can be used to attack Israel with from getting in.

The fact that stuff which is being used to attack Israel is getting into Gazza is therefore evidence of smuggling.

Second, if the Israeli blockade is part of a strategy to make Gazza uninhabitable then smuggling owt in which makes Gazza more habitable would, from Israel's PoV, constitute a strategical attack.

 

[rainforests1]

Well, the British controlled the Palestinian territories until 1947, when they turned the problem over to the UN, but feel free to keep blaming the US. Who was going to take the European Jews who survived the holocaust after WWII? England? France? Germany? The US? Lol.
________
Wiki:
"At the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire following World War I, the victorious European states divided many of its component regions into newly created states under League of Nations mandates according to deals that had been struck with other interested parties.[7] In the Middle East, Syria (including the Ottoman autonomous Christian Lebanon and the surrounding areas that became the Republic of Lebanon) came under French control, while Mesopotamia, and Palestine (including what became Jordan and Israel) were allotted to the British.

Most of these states achieved independence during the following three decades without great difficulty, though in some regimes, the colonial legacy continued through the granting of exclusive rights to market/manufacture oil and maintain troops to defend it. However, the case of Palestine remained problematic.

Arab nationalism was on the rise after World War II, possibly following the example of European nationalism. Pan-Arabist beliefs called for the creation of a single, secular state for all Arabs."

_________
Personally, I think the US should close most of its military bases around the world, starting with bringing home the many troops we have in Germany.

The Indians suffered by far the biggest genocide in history over several hundred years. They were never given a homeland.

 

[Second Summer]

 

[Spang]

But it's not a genocide, you guys.

 

[das_nut]

If they were serious, if they were truly concerned for the civilians, then there would be consequences for Israel. The US could withhold the billions in annual foreign aid. They could put the brakes on arms sales to Israel. Europe could boycott Israeli products. Etcetera. There are a lot that could be done to force Israel to abide by international law, but there is no political will to do so. I guess mainly because of the special, very cosy relationship between the US and Israel, and because Europe is still dependent on the US for protection against the Big Bad Bear.

Obama doesn't have that power without Congesss, and the House is in utter opposition to him, ne'ermind what seats need to cater to the Israeli lobby in order to be re-elected.

It's annoying as hell. At one end of US politics, you still have the racist anti-Semites, who will jump on any criticism of Israel as being anti-Semitic. On the other end, you have the pro-Israeli lobby who treats any criticism as anti-Semitic.

And somewhere in the middle, there's completely valid criticism of the state of Israel and it's treatment of the de-facto dependent nation of Gaza.

Then you have Israel, who is content to treat the Gazans as an indistinguishable bloc of people, and will play right into Hamas's hands by launching a ground war that ratchets up the Palestinian casualties. It would be really nice if Israel could figure out the carrot & stick approach, but at this point, it's all stick. Israel has lost the opportunity to divide the non-extreme elements of Gazan leadership from the extreme elements.

Plus, there's the whole mess that while the Palestinian population as a whole don't deserve such treatment, Hamas is a cancer on morality and its ideology should be extinguished.

So, expect this mess to stick around for another few decades.

 

[Second Summer]

Yes, I know the Obama administration holds limited power over foreign policy due to the Republican hold on Congress. When I said "they" I was referring to both the administration and Congress.

On a slightly different note, is there any hope of a demographic shift in the US that will change things for the better in the political landscape?

 

[Clueless Git]

Then you have Israel, who is content to treat the Gazans as an indistinguishable bloc of people, and will play right into Hamas's hands

There's an evidence trail that points towards Gazza's de-facto dependence being precisely what distinguishes it as target numero uno for Israel's next land grab.

Who is playing into who's hands to the greater degree, I can't fathom out though.

Hamas plays into Israel's hands by providing the minor provocations that give Israel an excuse for massively improportionate retaliatory responses.

Israel's massively improportionate retaliatory responses play into Hamas's hands by attracting the media attention that the Palestinian people so desperately need.

Hamas's choices seem to be limited soley to losing Gazza to Israel quietly or losing Gazza to Israel whilst making a lot of noise.

 

[rainforests1]

Did Obama get Congress' approval about the sanctions against Iran? Did he get Congress' approval for the conflict in Libya? I thought that is one of the complaints people have: Congress is supposed to have a lot of power, but Presidents lately have done their own foreign policy without Congress' approval. As far as this lasting many decades, Gaza is expected to have a water shortage as early as 2016 that could make it uninhabitable. I'd just focus on the next year or two.

 

[das_nut]

On a slightly different note, is there any hope of a demographic shift in the US that will change things for the better in the political landscape?

Well, as the older generation dies off, the demographics will shift to a more liberal mindset.

But in the foreseeable future, the tea party is still strong enough to threaten Republican primaries, which tends to lead to a lot of herp derp in congress to the point where it's arguably dysfunctional.

Did Obama get Congress' approval about the sanctions against Iran? Did he get Congress' approval for the conflict in Libya? I thought that is one of the complaints people have: Congress is supposed to have a lot of power, but Presidents lately have done their own foreign policy without Congress' approval

Stop listening to Fox News.

Presidents have been steering their own foreign policy for about as long as the office has been around. Look at Washington's neutrality proclamation, and the debate that went on about if Washington overstepped his powers.