If the world went vegetarian would we need vegans?

[Queen of Strawberries]

Just wondering but if the world went vegetarian would eggs, dairy, honey, wool, ect. be okay to have/consume? I mean, if no animal is killed or harmed in any way to get those products wouldn't it be enough?
Am I wrong in thinking that the reason the egg/dairy industry is bad is because unwanted animals are killed for food?
I have a feeling i'm missing something.
Thanks in advance.

 

[Forest Nymph]

Need vegans for what?

If everyone was vegetarian there definitely would be more sustainable food systems in terms of human nutrition (and by nutrition I mean not nearly one billion humans starving as today, not in a more complex medical sense, I mean sustenance ) and we would be doing less harm to the planet for sure. It would be a great start.

But in terms of animal rights you have your Indian Hindus and Buddhists who may avoid all eggs and revere cows, and I don't consider that animal cruelty. On the other hand if the world population continued to increase eggs and dairy would still be factory farmed in some awful way that objectifies animals so there would be the vegetarians who still bought those things because they were convenient or cheap.

I do think ethical vegetarianism is possible in fact I don't think veganism is possible in the worst parts of the developing world, currently. One of the problems with the Monsanto golden rice project aside from it being evil GMO Monsanto is that it's worthless without a rich source of protein and fat. I'm not naive enough to imagine that doesn't involve either eggs or goat's milk even if meat is entirely avoided (and unaffordable which is part of the hypocrisy of Monsanto golden rice to begin with but anyway).

I actually grew up around my grandparents and my grandfather traveled the world, and he instilled a strong interest in global politics and human history in me. This means as a vegan I'm all too familiar with the conditions of primitive agriculture being a literal life necessity to some groups. As long as those civilizations exist the best we can hope for is world vegetarianism, and that is putting Western selfishness aside, that's just a basic reality check.

HOWEVER. That does not mean people in the industrialized world should be vegetarian because someone in Somalia is. If you can live without cruelty of any kind, why wouldn't you?

I'd like to see a scientist work diligently on cultivating B12 without cobalt mining so veganism could be more accessible to all. Sadly I'm not a chemist.

 

[Lou]

Hi QoS! Good to see you back.
Yes, you ARE missing something.

In another thread, we were just discussing "humane eggs and milk". I always think back on my childhood Little House On the Prarie novels. Mary Ingles would go out each morning to milk the cow while Laura went to collect eggs. in some 3rd world country, that kind of animal agriculture is still taking place.

Even here in America, there are some things like that. There is that dairy the shoe guys own that has "boutique" milk for 8 bucks a gallon. And that dairy the nuns operate for cheese that was featured in Michael Pollan's cooked. But when you get down to it - those animals, as well as they are treated, are still being exploited.

But here in America, those are real outliers. Animal agriculture is almost all big business. And it doesn't take a very hard look to see that it is mostly conducted in cruel and inhumane ways. More humane milk and eggs are making it to the marketplace. But for the most part products like cage-free eggs are just a little better than the mainstream products.

For HW, I have two videos for you. The first is by Erin Janus and only takes 5 minutes. However, it is very explicit and you may find some of it offensive. so consider your self warned. If you don't want to watch it you might just check out this page. It's a photo essay and not so explicit.

The second video is also by Erin Janus about the egg industry. But this one is 20 minutes long. So instead you might want to check out this page instead. It's another PETA photo essay.

 

[mavrick45]

we'd still have to forcibly impregnate cows, which I believe violates their bodily autonomy

then there's the issue of what to do with all the calves, since we wouldnt be killing them for meat, we'd have a huge surplus of male cattle

drugs are sometimes used to force them to produce even more milk—the average cow today produces more than four times as much milk as cows did in 1950. Cows may be dosed with recombinant bovine growth hormone (rBGH), which contributes to an increased incidence of mastitis, a painful inflammation of the udder. According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, 16.5 percent of cows used for their milk suffer from mastitis, which is one of the leading causes of death in adult cows in the dairy industry.

A cow’s natural lifespan is about 20 years, but cows used by the dairy industry are typically killed after about five years because their bodies wear out from constantly being pregnant or lactating. but if we're not killing them then there is going to be another huge surplus of cows that we dont have room for.

it's just not sustainable

 

[Vegan Dogs]

we'd still have to forcibly impregnate cows, which I believe violates their bodily autonomy

then there's the issue of what to do with all the calves, since we wouldnt be killing them for meat, we'd have a huge surplus of male cattle

drugs are sometimes used to force them to produce even more milk—the average cow today produces more than four times as much milk as cows did in 1950. Cows may be dosed with recombinant bovine growth hormone (rBGH), which contributes to an increased incidence of mastitis, a painful inflammation of the udder. According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, 16.5 percent of cows used for their milk suffer from mastitis, which is one of the leading causes of death in adult cows in the dairy industry.

A cow’s natural lifespan is about 20 years, but cows used by the dairy industry are typically killed after about five years because their bodies wear out from constantly being pregnant or lactating. but if we're not killing them then there is going to be another huge surplus of cows that we dont have room for.

it's just not sustainable

This is very silly. CALVES are created by HUMANS RAPING INSEMINATING cows ! when that STOPS there will BE no more calves to kill or keep alive

The animals bred to be killed live very short lives....when humans stop forcing them into existance the poor frankenstein suffering from the day they are born breeds will CEASE

 

[Emma JC]

I am sure that Maverick can speak for himself however I think he was ultimately agreeing with you and pointing out to the Queen that vegetarianism alone would not be sustainable.... feel free to correct me if I am wrong. He is not promoting the things he is writing he is just pointing out that in order to still have 'milk' you would have to keep up the terrible situation that currently exists and because no one would be eating 'beef' there would be too many cows around....

Emma JC

 

[Lou]

Well in response to all of you, there is some kind of imaginable world where the only milk, eggs, and wool would come from happy animals living in harmony with their caretakers on beautiful farms. And since this is my fantasy, the caretakers are all half naked beautiful young women. Or nuns. I am reminded again of the Abbey of Regina Laudis which is a cheese making dairy.

Actually, a vegetarian world OR a vegan world is pretty hard to imagine. There is a whole boatload of practicalities that would have to be addressed (from what to do with all the bulls to how to keep the caretakers from getting sunburned).

Just because something is hard doesn't mean it's not worth trying to do. Ethical vegetarianism and veganism is about reducing animal exploitation. It probably isn't possible to eliminate it. But we can all work towards that goal. And hope for a better future for the world including its animals.

 

[mavrick45]

This is very silly. CALVES are created by HUMANS RAPING INSEMINATING cows ! when that STOPS there will BE no more calves to kill or keep alive

The animals bred to be killed live very short lives....when humans stop forcing them into existance the poor frankenstein suffering from the day they are born breeds will CEASE

yeah, I mean, that's literally what I said. are you misinterpreting my words?

 

[veganDreama]

Factory farm chickens and your average dairy farm is as cruel as it gets so while the idea of vegetarian sounds good it's not far enough. One big step forward for me is if ALL Factory farming became illegal. After all it's inhuman and its destroying the planet. Ok their would still be meat but that would be a luxury item and since genuinely free range meat is quite expensive many people would have to go vegetarian or pescatarian for economic reasons.

 

[Lou]

I totally agree with your sentiment. It would be great if factory farming became illegal. But I don't see it happening. I think legislation can improve the conditions of livestock, but I don't see any path to making it illegal. I do see a multitude of ways that it can become less profitable. and if meat increases in price and the alternatives decrease or even remain the same consumption will decrease. I think public awareness of the conditions of animals, their effect on the environment, and peoples health need to be where we put our energy. Climate change and Health care costs have already given us some leverage and ways into the global conversation.
I was also recently reminded that human costs are an area that vegans need to exploit. The average livestock worker is paid around $12 an hour. the conditions are bad and dangerous. (just google Tyson and Amputations) Improving conditions and pay for humans might have more appeal for the general population. And make livestock less profitable.
Unfortunately, I don't see people doing the right things for the right reasons. But when it comes down to it, I don't care what their reason are - as long as they do the right thing: not eat animals.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

Didn't read all the responses but we are always going to need vegans. Veganism is a great philosophy which rightly includes opposite to suffering, lack of freedom etc as well as loss of life.

 

[TofuRobot]

Might be a better question to ask yourself if we need to eat animals. At the end of the day, the answer to that will give you all the answers you need. There is no "need" to complicate it any further than that. (Hint: The answer is 'No.')

 

[FredVegrox]

It is a strange perspective that I see now vegetarians can have, and I was vegetarian before. Use of animals is always with captivity and violent breeding, once it is known, veganism is the right choice, as I saw and knew to become vegan. There is only ignorance with which to not be vegan, as I and many of us who are now vegan would plead, and if not that, just real apathy, which is hard to respect or excuse. It is strange to think of all the world being vegetarian with still using the animals, in the way that they are, still for dairy products, or for the eggs. The same other issues would still be around, though perhaps not to the same extent, but I am not sure about that. Veganism is the only choice for effectively dealing with those.