If we accept evolution theory-Meat-eaters are cannibals

[Andy_T]

I won’t start discussing whether evolution is „correct“ or not, as I understand that people coming from a Christian background have different beliefs and rationalisations here than I have.

BUT - I guess rather than trying to convince Non-Christians that they are cannibals, you might ask fellow Christians why they don’t live by the words „Thou shalt not kill“ if we now have all the options available to get our nutrition without killing non-human animals…

Of course, I understand that it might be much more difficult to find all the convenient vegan food items we have become accustomed to in Europe and North America.

 

[Oluwamuyiwa]

I won’t start discussing whether evolution is „correct“ or not, as I understand that people coming from a Christian background have different beliefs and rationalisations here than I have.

BUT - I guess rather than trying to convince Non-Christians that they are cannibals, you might ask fellow Christians why they don’t live by the words „Thou shalt not kill“ if we now have all the options available to get our nutrition without killing non-human animals…

Of course, I understand that it might be much more difficult to find all the convenient vegan food items we have become accustomed to in Europe and North America.

I like your view on the subject. I also tried to avoid taking my cue from religious frame, because not all of us subscribe to religion and it's belief. I tried using a universal subject, one we all have the knowledge due to education.

Honestly, I wish I could start a conversation using Christian beliefs as my basis of discussion, I do have a lot to say, having studied the biblical text which strongly advocates for vegan/vegetarian diet.

BUT - I guess rather than trying to convince Non-Christians that they are cannibals, you might ask fellow Christians why they don’t live by the words „Thou shalt not kill“ if we now have all the options available to get our nutrition without killing non-human animals…

And you are right with your statement above, of trying to convince fellow Christians using a quote from a book they revere. But not all believe that same book and it's content, had to consider those individuals. Logically, that same quote should apply to all living beings, irrespective of the book being acceptable or not.

'Thou shalt not kill' applies to all beings, whether you are a Christian or not.

 

[bEt]

I can really appreciate what everybody else said, about seeing that even if we come from different backgrounds, we are all moral creatures.

people . . . have different beliefs and rationalisations

Thou shalt not kill' applies to all beings, whether you are a Christian or not.

When I think about talking to people who aren't on a plant-based diet, I think silva had a good suggestion in a similar thread.

She said, "this is mostly why I so favor the idea of making plant based eating mainstream rather than touting animal rights."

Please help me with my confusion | Vegan Forum

Does this mean making it easier for everyone to eat more plant-based foods?

 

[bEt]

I'm not sure this thread was ever really about the theory of evolution, or about religion, or even about canabalism. What I thought it was about was something more universal--sadness.
This is a group that is trying to lessen or stop some types of hunting in Nigeria:

https://wildaid.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Nigeria-Bushmeat-Consumption-Survey-Report.pdf

" messaging must be clearly tailored to the target audience (urban vs. rural consumers, traders vs. hunters) and the species (pangolins and primates vs. grasscutters), rather than using a one-size-fits-all campaign to address them all. This must go hand in hand with long-term “pride” campaigns and conservation education programs that emphasize the positive and prominent roles of wildlife in economies, ecosystems, and cultures."

Like the foxhunts in England, this kind of thing must be even harder to bear when it is right next door, so to speak.

 

[VeganRachel]

Where did man come from? How did man find himself on earth? Does man have a Creator? These are still questions that invade my mind from time to time. I was taught about evolution theory in High school, never seem to accept it. Maybe because I was brought up in a Christian home, where we read the bible which says God created man and woman. I did believe and still believe that man was created, which makes evolution theory out to be an hypothesis to me. I will try to use reason to investigate, I believe man has a mind to understand the truth, even though it's subjective, the truth should make sense when it's heard by all parties. For example, we all know that if you throw a ball up in the air, it's definitely going to come back down. It's the truth, and we all agree because it can be confirmed with an action and reaction.

Charles Darwin is considered one of the greatest mind in the world, but we must accept that he can be wrong about somethings. But I am not here to disagree with him, I am only going to use his theory to support my resolve that those that believe in evolution and eat animal products are cannibals. Please don't be surprised, you can disagree with me, but hear me out first. I believe we all know about the evolution theory (Darwin proposed that species can change over time, that new species come from pre-existing species, and that all species share a common ancestor), in simple terms; that animals such as Apes evolved into humans over millions of years ago. If that is so, then animals today are our ancestors and siblings, so why are we eating them?

Now, you might say, the animals you eat are not Apes, they are cattle, chickens and domesticated animals. Let me inform you about a recent occurrence in my country, certain hunters went into the forest and shot down Chimpanzees, Orangutans. Orangutans and Chimpanzees are part of the Ape family, so they qualify as Apes. They didn't stop there, they butchered these animals and made them into a meal, just to satisfy their flesh cravings. How sad is it, I would share some pictures to confirm my story (viewers discretion is advised).

I have been having a hard time reconciling the effects of such actions, killing a fellow animal just to eat their flesh. Such animals have kids too, they have families too, why deprive them of their fellow kind? I know I am speaking to my fellow Vegans, that this platform isn't the place I am supposed to even post this, but I know we all have friends and families that still consume meat. I became aware of vitamin B12 on this platform, but the honest truth is, people don't eat meat for the vitamin sake, they eat for pleasure sake.

N.B. The first picture is a painting I made of the transition between man and Ape, showing that the evolution theory was just a fiction like that of Werewolf.

Are regular omnivore or carnivore humans, cannibals? Most of those humans today would not consume dog, cat, horse, or-- human flesh.
I would call flesh and blood eating humans, carnists. They eat the dead, as I used to.
Scientists have found cannibal DNA in humans, and the truth is that humanity at times in human history, has eaten other humans. At times
of famine, war, drought, isolation, death rituals, we have eaten other humans. Children in Yeshua's time (and in modern times) were sacrificed
to the "God's" moloch or baal, and consumed. The Mayans and Aztec's sacrificed millions of humans cut their hearts out, and consumed their
bodies. Thousands of years ago humans practiced infanticide as a survival mechanism.

Cannibalism's DNA Trail: Gene may signal ancient prion-disease outbreaks

Cannibalism among prehistoric humans may have left lasting genetic marks.

www.sciencenews.org

Side Effects Of Eating Human Flesh: Cannibalism Increases Risk Of Prion Disease, And Eventually Death

Eating human flesh comes with several health risks, including the development of prion disease, and potentially death.

www.medicaldaily.com

Cannibalism Study Finds People Are Not That Nutritious

While our ancient ancestors did practice cannibalism, eating other humans just couldn’t compare with taking down a mammoth.

www.nationalgeographic.com

 

[VeganRachel]

I can really appreciate what everybody else said, about seeing that even if we come from different backgrounds, we are all moral creatures.



When I think about talking to people who aren't on a plant-based diet, I think silva had a good suggestion in a similar thread.

She said, "this is mostly why I so favor the idea of making plant based eating mainstream rather than touting animal rights."

Please help me with my confusion | Vegan Forum

Does this mean making it easier for everyone to eat more plant-based foods?

What makes it "easier" than it already is?. There are plenty of plant foods available, tons of recipes, and hundreds of books,
artiucles, video's, support groups, and websites available.

 

[Lou]

Ha! The reason we don't eat other people is that they aren't nutritious enough.

 

[beancounter]

According to evolution theory, all life ( Archaea, Eubacteria, and Eukaryotes) evolved from a single simple organism ("Common ancestor").

If we follow this logic to its ultimate conclusion, essentially any living thing that consumes something else for sustenance is a cannibal then...

So just singling out human omnivores is silly....

 

[Oluwamuyiwa]

According to evolution theory, all life ( Archaea, Eubacteria, and Eukaryotes) evolved from a single simple organism ("Common ancestor").

If we follow this logic to its ultimate conclusion, essentially any living thing that consumes something else for sustenance is a cannibal then...

So just singling out human omnivores is silly....

You are the best, you seem to explain the point I was driving at effortlessly. You understand what I was thinking when I decided to write. Sadly, my point has been misunderstood and contentions had erupted, which has made me sensitive.

But I am glad you do understand and you were able to use your words to describe it in simple terms.

Peace & Love
Cyril

 

[Brian W]

I think the controversy is interesting. Some of it is fueled by ignorance or wishful thinking.
Although I think there are good arguments and evidence that if you go back far enough our ancestors probably did eat very similarly to the great apes but we have contiunued to evolve and modern man is "naturally" an omnivore.

Modern man can choose to be a vegan.

I've been thinking recently a lot about how we distinguish between "natural" and "artificial" Why are things man makes considered artificial whereas things animals make are considered natural? Isn't it natural to want to create more and more useful things? I think the argument from nature is irrelevant anyway.

 

[Lou]

I've been thinking recently a lot about how we distinguish between "natural" and "artificial"

It depends on the context.

Why are things man makes considered artificial whereas things animals make are considered natural?

That is not a good restating. Better: manmade things are are artificial. Things found in nature are natural.
But this dichotomy is not set in stone There are many people, perspectives and arguments that refute that as well. I don't think it's a particular good argument but it has been stated that since man is "natural" what he makes is therefore natural.

Isn't it natural to want to create more and more useful things? I think the argument from nature is irrelevant anyway.

Leaving god out of it. Things found in nature are not created with conscious thought. The tofu scramble I made this morning required a bit.

Anyway, context is key. When I said "modern man is 'naturally' an omnivore", what I meant is that Strictly Biologically speaking (not considering culture), man is an omnivore. The biological definition of an omnivore is an animal that CAN eat plants or animals. Of course we can choose not to. but that is culture not biology.

The other thing that I find to be a much more interesting discussion is when we use anthropological and DNA to determine man's "natural" diet. The discussion has to start with how far we want to go back. Some people want to go back to the first hominids, 6 million years ago, Or to homo Erectus, 2 milions years ago, or to Homo sapiens - 200,000 years ago. or modern man, Homo sapiens sapiens just under 100,000 years ago. and we are still evolving, too.

We have all seen that chart of how we are more similar to herbivores than carnivores. And that is probably true. but its beside the point - we are the third thing: omnimoves.

 

[Brian W]

Leaving god out of it. Things found in nature are not created with conscious thought. The tofu scramble I made this morning required a bit.

So we like to believe, but who is to say how much thought it requires for a bird to make a nest or for pigeons to learn to navigate using human road structures or for any natural skill. Who of us is psychic and can read the mind of a beaver creating a dam in order to decide that there is no conscious thought involved? I might know the way to town without deliberate thinking but I still need to cross roads and avoid bumping into people and maybe deal with unexpected obstructions etc. If we have evolved randomly as a part of nature then our progress and the things we create are nothing more than animal instinct, so why do we differentiate? Why are our mental processes "conscious thinking" while those of the animals are not?

 

[Lou]

So we like to believe, but who is to say how much thought it requires for a bird to make a nest or for pigeons to learn to navigate using human road structures or for any natural skill. Who of us is psychic and can read the mind of a beaver creating a dam in order to decide that there is no conscious thought involved? I might know the way to town without deliberate thinking but I still need to cross roads and avoid bumping into people and maybe deal with unexpected obstructions etc. If we have evolved randomly as a part of nature then our progress and the things we create are nothing more than animal instinct, so why do we differentiate? Why are our mental processes "conscious thinking" while those of the animals are not?

Omg. Good points!
Well my knee jerk reaction is to then put nests and dams in the artificial category. but I want to think about this some more.

 

[Brian W]

Omg. Good points!
Well my knee jerk reaction is to then put nests and dams in the artificial category. but I want to think about this some more.

And knowing you, your answer will be a good one.

 

[VeganRachel]

Ha! The reason we don't eat other people is that they aren't nutritious enough.

Ha ha, The main reason is because humans are the same species, and our ego's only want to eat lower animals.

 

[Lou]

Ha ha, The main reason is because humans are the same species, and our ego's only want to eat lower animals.

I'm pretty sure that what animals we eat is based on culture.
There are cultures that are cannibals. While other cultures consider cannabalism taboo.
There are also cultures that can and will eat great apes. Others consider apes taboo.
There may not even be any really good reasons for these taboos.
Take for instance our own culture. We eat cows and pigs but not dogs and cats.

Not really relevant but I remember an article I read that hypothizised that religous dietary laws might have originated from health issues. Pigs were taboo because of trichinosis. perhaps early jews made the connection even without knowing about microscopic parasites. Shell fish sometimes caused hepatitis and early jews may have drawn that inference without knowing the causes.

 

[silva]

I'm pretty sure that what animals we eat is based on culture.
There are cultures that are cannibals. While other cultures consider cannabalism taboo.
There are also cultures that can and will eat great apes. Others consider apes taboo.
There may not even be any really good reasons for these taboos.
Take for instance our own culture. We eat cows and pigs but not dogs and cats.

Not really relevant but I remember an article I read that hypothizised that religous dietary laws might have originated from health issues. Pigs were taboo because of trichinosis. perhaps early jews made the connection even without knowing about microscopic parasites. Shell fish sometimes caused hepatitis and early jews may have drawn that inference without knowing the causes.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/09/06/482952588/when-people-ate-people-a-strange-disease-emerged

When I learned about where meat came from I couldn't understand why we would kill someone when we all die anyway. Why would people raise animals and kill them when they would die anyway? Why wouldn't we eat mice and rats, and all the dogs and cats that get euthanized?

My primary reason to be vegan is as simple as the fact that I can

 

[VeganRachel]

Ha! The reason we don't eat other people is that they aren't nutritious enough.

I'm pretty sure that what animals we eat is based on culture.
There are cultures that are cannibals. While other cultures consider cannabalism taboo.
There are also cultures that can and will eat great apes. Others consider apes taboo.
There may not even be any really good reasons for these taboos.
Take for instance our own culture. We eat cows and pigs but not dogs and cats.

Not really relevant but I remember an article I read that hypothizised that religous dietary laws might have originated from health issues. Pigs were taboo because of trichinosis. perhaps early jews made the connection even without knowing about microscopic parasites. Shell fish sometimes caused hepatitis and early jews may have drawn that inference without knowing the causes.

There are many cultural foods, but cannibalism is a massive extreme unless you are starving. Most of us would eat a dog or horse
before we would ever eat human flesh. ITS" OUR OWN SPECIES. That is the main reason most would not eat human flesh. It is
taboo and what makes humans very very uncomfortable when cannibalism is mentioned.

 

[Lou]

Not to feed a fed horse, but there are (well used to be) tribes that would kill, cook and eat people. Granted it was rare and maybe could be considered an outlier but the thing is - it has been done.

There are cultures that like to eat dog. Westeners consider that a crime. Some religious laws consider pigs taboo.

And a lot of westerners gag when they think about eating insects, or snakes, or frogs or monkey brains but there are groups of humans that do all those things.

Then there are all these crazy vegans who consider it wrong to eat animals.

 

[Lou]

https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/09/06/482952588/when-people-ate-people-a-strange-disease-emerged

That is so interesting - on several levels.
Could something like that have happened to early man so far back there is no cultural memory except for the concept: don't eat people.

When I learned about where meat came from I couldn't understand why we would kill someone when we all die anyway.

Why am I thinking of Soylent Green.
Ocean's dying, plankton's dying... it's people. *Soylent Green is made out of people.* They're making our food out of people. Next thing they'll be breeding us like cattle for food.

Why would people raise animals and kill them when they would die anyway? Why wouldn't we eat mice and rats, and all the dogs and cats that get euthanized?

And this reminds me of a chapter in Eating Animals, where Foer, does a very credible Johnathan Swift and explains how dog and cat food should be made of stray dogs and cats.

My primary reason to be vegan is as simple as the fact that I can

Really?!
Oh wait, I think I know what you mean.
We don't have to eat animals so therefore we shouldn't.