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the last vegan feast
There are worse foods, but they are never vegan, but they can be friendly-er then factory farmed.
Can eggs be vegan-friendly?
- Thread starter Graeme M
- Start date
@Graeme M I've only quoted the paragraph to which I'm replying.
I think you are correct that many people balk at veganism because they judge it to be too restrictive. I've lost count of the number of vegetarians who mention cheese as a food they would be unable to give up. But I became pescatarian back in the summer of 1968, vegetarian a bit less that 4 years later, and something in-between vegetarian and vegan more recently... maybe around 25 years ago. I was fortunate to have family and friends who understood why I was doing it, and were sympathetic and supportive, even though they did not choose that path themselves. But- the options we have now!!!... Impossible Burgers! Vegan milk substitutes that taste as good as the real thing- but without either the cruelty or the saturated fat! (although I'd like them to lose the titanium dioxide coloring... maybe they have by now?...) "Just Egg" vegan egg substitute! Vegan hot dogs (which I haven't gotten around to trying because I was always on Team Burger, though I ate hot dogs in my pre-veg days when they were served)! And... yes... vegan substitutes for fish- which might have shortened my transition from pesco to full vegetarian if they'd been available back then (because I've tried them, and they're quite satisfying).
Some of the newer foods I mention might not be suitable for everyone- for instance, people who must avoid soyfoods. But even then, there are options: I usually drink soymilk, but there was at least one non-animal "milk"- "Vegelicious", made partly from potatoes!!.. which was quite satisfying, taste-wise, although it wasn't nearly as close to cow's milk nutritionally as the soy options have been.
I don't know if pescatarianism, let alone veganism, will ever be the lifestyle of the majority. But we can support options that make them easier.
Wow... How can you compare that to wild animals destroying crops which you have no control over, while you are intentionally raising an animal to be slaughtered, the fck.
PS: I don't agree with killing animals, but instead setting traps(then release) and fences, and ready to pay the extra price for such farming regulations.
OP
OP
You are discounting the scale. When we grow crops, we have to cover a lot of land in those crops. That takes land from wild populations, reduces biodiversity, harms many animals from fertiliser runoff, chemical use and so on. Then, we kill wild animals in large numbers because they threaten our crops. Of course, we have some moral justification for killing very large numbers of wild animals in such cases, but this remains a significant harm to the wild nature. It's a pretty unjust situation, caused purely by voluntary human over-population.
In the case of the eggs I get from my friend, she raises her hens in natural conditions, though she may give them commercial feed (I don't really know what she feeds them), and they enjoy natural, safe and healthy lives. They are not common commercial egg laying breeds. She does kill roosters when they become a threat to the overall wellbeing of the flock and prepares their remains as human and pet food. So while they are killed, they at least serve a very good use, unlike the large numbers of wild animals we kill to protect crops.
Think about this in the context of crops and killing wild animals. We intentionally grow crops while knowing we will kill many animals to do that. Can you explain the significant difference between that and killing these roosters?
What do you mean scale. They feed a large percentage of population obviously they are big. Plus your chickens feed, where do you think that comes from? You are killing wild animals and roosters!! And the killing of rooster is premeditated killing while wild animals killed are trespassers. We should all be out on the streets calling for more strict and humane farm regulations(like fencing) instead of raising and killing animals. The problem is the side effect of trespassing wild animals so let's solve that instead of pointing out this problem, making a whataboutery, and going in the opposite direction killing roosters. Let's solve problems, not create new ones by pointing out those problems.
Missed this.
Veganism is about animal rights. Leather is not food. Vegans do not use leather.
But it is about not exploiting animals or using animal products. So eggs are not vegan.
"Either it is an animal rights term or it is a food term" This is a false dichotomy...logical fallacy. Of course, it can be both.
It's a bit like saying "Either they are a human, or an ape".... when in fact, humans are apes.
OP
OP
I simply mean that the scale of cropping has an enormous and deeply negative effect on wild populations and the environment. Cropping is not a benign activity. Also, the scale of wild animal killing to protect crops is very large. You go on to discount this because these animals are "trespassing", and while I agree there is something of a moral difference between protecting crops and commercially raising animals for food, I think that the scale of harm from crop protection is still a huge moral issue.
Trespassing wild animals are killed intentionally as well. However, in the case of these hens, they are not being raised as a commercial enterprise. They will be raised regardless of what choices I make - my friend gives me the eggs for free and her doing what she does in no way depends upon my eating those eggs. In other words, whatever harms she causes from doing this - roosters killed, wild animals killed to protect the feed crops, whatever - will continue to happen. On the other hand, me eating these eggs will reduce the scale of harm from my diet.
They feed almost all the of the population in the world, obviously they are huge. The point is crops cause the least amount of harm and ecological destruction compared to fishing, or animals raised on these crop feed. Plus raising animals for planned killing, whether commercially or not, is a huge moral issue compared to killing of animals while protecting the most efficient way to produce food, which is crops. Please understand.
If you are eating unfertilised eggs from a rescued hen then I find no moral issue there, provided you don't have the money or access to medical facilities to spay the hen. What difference does it make if she is raising them as a hobby or commercially. Just because she is not making profit makes this somewhat ok? It's still the same inefficient and cruel form of food production where both the roosters and hen's feed crop trespassing animals are killed. If a robber offers you free money will you accept it? Afterall the robbing is already done and whether you accepting the money or not it's not going to change anything. Will you accept the meat of a cow which was raised as a hobby by your friend? Your friend is doing something wrong and you are wanting to be a part of it, instead of convincing her to change her hobby. Not good. You are only looking at the pain, suffering and death aspect, and concluding since my actions are not increasing pain and death, it's all ok. There is a moral aspect as well. In most cases both these aspects coincide, but not in all the cases.
I forgot to address your, reducing scale of harm if you eat those eggs, line. If your friend is giving to you for free then obviously she has to substitute it with something else. Maybe she will eat those feed crops which you would have had if you hadn't got those eggs. You were just trading food.
If she says the eggs will go to waste and that's why she is giving them to you then there is a harm reducing argument there. But they are not going to waste, plus she has other animals which can eat them in case she can't.
If she says the eggs will go to waste and that's why she is giving them to you then there is a harm reducing argument there. But they are not going to waste, plus she has other animals which can eat them in case she can't.
OP
OP
I'm not sure I follow you here. My friend is a farmer who raises sheep and cattle. Her hens are simply a hobby - she keeps them just because she likes them. Her own diet does include some eggs but she cannot eat all of the eggs produced, so she gives some away as well as feeds her dogs and the hens with them. I think you are trying to over-complicate this.
Not necessarily at the personal level, which after all is primarily what vegan ethics are about. Our own choices.
I do understand your point and broadly I agree. However, personally hunting for food is a different matter as I see it. But my main point is that growing crops IS a moral concern when we find that it causes substantial negative impacts. We should not wave that away just because it might be of slightly lesser moral weight.
I doubt any vegan "waves away" the issue of crop deaths. But until we can get a consensus that killing animals for food and other things, when not necessary...is wrong, then trying to get into debates on veganic farming etc is probably a little too soon.
Also, personally hunting for food should be foraging for berries, mushrooms, root veg... Not killing majestic wild animals.
You know, only 4% of the mammal biomass on Earth is wild animals. The rest is cows, sheep, pigs, etc and humans.
I think it's about time we stopped "hunting for food" if it involves the unnecessary death of sentient beings.
I meant crops, not feed crops. Sorry about that.
Raising free range animals whether commercially or not the effects are the same. Their feed has to come from somewhere. They are inefficient and more cruel form of food production.
If one raises free range hens commercially or everyone raises hens in their backyard the effect is the same. Their feed has to come from somewhere. It's more cruel and inefficient.
If you want animal companionship there are thousands of stray dogs and cats killed everyday in shelters because no one is coming to adopt them. Please adopt them and give them a home instead of a poison needle, or buying exotic breeds from puppy mills, or breeding and raising farm animals in your backyard. The bottom line is please don't breed new animals. Save the ones which are already present.
No hunting please. No more intrusion into ecosystems. The current ecological destruction is bad enough as it is. The remaining forests should be converted into protected areas where human involvement should be minimal or non existent. Please don't mess up their ecosystem.
I agree there is cruelty involved in growing crops. We have to make it more humane.
Interesting question, i as well was questioning it sometimes, even if i don't eat eggs. There can be different situations and different opinions.
Raising bunch of chickens on purpose to produce and sell eggs - yes, most likely an animal use, so not really vegan. On the other hand, if someone wants a pet and gets a chicken as a pet, eggs will be appearing naturally and it's up to that person to decide what to do with them. In this case eggs obtained by such 'natural way' do not interrupt any vegan values in my opinion.
Now, i can imagine someone would want to take a chicken because of reallly liking to eat eggs. In this case the original intention is to obtain eggs, which makes it look like an animal use.. however, if a chicken owner treats it like a real pet, gives all care and love, spends time with it, then it still should not hurt vegan values, rather it's a symbiosis - chicken gets good life, owner gets tasty eggs. But on the other hand, it is still use of animal product.
Raising bunch of chickens on purpose to produce and sell eggs - yes, most likely an animal use, so not really vegan. On the other hand, if someone wants a pet and gets a chicken as a pet, eggs will be appearing naturally and it's up to that person to decide what to do with them. In this case eggs obtained by such 'natural way' do not interrupt any vegan values in my opinion.
Now, i can imagine someone would want to take a chicken because of reallly liking to eat eggs. In this case the original intention is to obtain eggs, which makes it look like an animal use.. however, if a chicken owner treats it like a real pet, gives all care and love, spends time with it, then it still should not hurt vegan values, rather it's a symbiosis - chicken gets good life, owner gets tasty eggs. But on the other hand, it is still use of animal product.
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OP
OP
In the context of the OP I made about this, the eggs in question come from a farmer friend. She keeps heritage/rare breed chickens purely out of passion for these breeds. They are in no way for any commercial gain and are very well looked after with good health and freedom to practice natural behaviours. She feeds many eggs back to the chickens but still has an excess which she gives free to some of her friends, me included. By every possible vegan principle, these are vegan-friendly eggs. The only reason they are not vegan is because they are an animal product.
Strange statement in context with what I said. I said. 1. I think it is ethically fine (and to reiterate what - To rescue chickens from slaughter, and house them, feed them etc, then use some of those eggs) , but not vegan.
I also said "This is one of the reasons I have stopped using the word "vegan" on the forum profile."
We know. Or at least that's the definition as currently stated by the Vegan society.
Last I heard they were not the official arbiters of the definitions of words. In fact nobody is. The meaning of words is (sometimes unfortunately) defined by public consensus and usage.
Humans are animals. We are omnivorous hunter/gatherer opportunists.
We never became corrupt, we simply used our brains to live.
We've eaten other animals, worn animal skins, and used other animal products since the dawn of humanity.
It's only in the last tiny percentile of human history that we even could go vegan.
And yes, I think it's what we should do if we can, but shaking off the last possibly half a million years of habit, especially given our greed, is gonna take some doing.
And I personally eat quite a lot of tofu...and no eggs! (Although if I find any plant-based chocolate Easter eggs then I'll be tempted)
I think you're almost there.
But remember, getting an animal as a pet, is itself not considered vegan...unless the animal is a rescue.
So , yes, if, like Gaz Oakley as I mentioned earlier, he rescued a bunch of chickens and actually gave them a fairly luxury coop.
He feeds them and they give back in manure.
He gives away the eggs to friends and family who are not vegan.
I see no issues with this at all.
(your post only partially quoted) If you were joking, then my reply here is pretty much irrelevant- but communication would quickly become impossible if words did not have precise meanings. I'm thinking of the scene in Lewis Carrol's "Through The Looking Glass", where Humpty Dumpty tells Alice that when he uses a word, it means whatever he wants it to mean.
I acknowledge that these meanings can change over time.
manakuke
Newcomer
I used to enjoy eggs before becoming vegan but now they're just very interesting bird excrement and the thought of eating them gets grosser every time. I bought some black salt to add the sulfer/eggy smell/flavor to my vegan food and quickly realized that the smell of that stuff was the least thing I liked about eggs. However, it did help me stop missing them really fast! Just my thoughts on egg eating in general here 
P. S I really like chickens as a species but would never will one into my life.
P. S I really like chickens as a species but would never will one into my life.
The thing is, wheat bread is fantastic. A French baguette, a Greek Horiatiko Psomii dunno ... i guess i like contemplating and having a yarn ... great way to learn of new things ... always do my best to have an open mind
per se... i was just looking into the idea of wheat being a hallucinogen and discovered that rye grass is most susseptible to such a thing
they call this ergotism which has historically been linked to mass hysteria {such the the salem witch trials where 19 people were exectured}
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and since "maize" in my home tongue language means "bread"
why the heck wouldn't we shift to "corn maize / bread" ???
easily cooked like any 3 ingredient damper or sourdough (and no need for the inclusion of eggs) #happydays #lovinglife
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based on covid 19 and all the other crazy things going on around the world
one would consider hemp flour or even lentil flour or even bunya nut flower or sunflower seed flower if corn ain't your thing
i'm all for shifting cycles of time and evolving into the future
I can't get enough!
And what about seitan!
(And I am mildly gluten intolerant).
Evolution is incredibly important.
And both our physiology and sense of morality have and are evolving.
Bear-baiting, Cock fighting, Dog-fighting etc all were once accepted and considered normal.
In 16th Century France, cats were seen as unlucky. They had a practice of filling a net full of live cats and lowering them into a bonfire.
Thankfully, we are moving away from this type of thing...Far too slowly for you and me of course, but it's happening.
There will be a day when we regard the consumption of animals as a last-resort, although I doubt we will ever see a vegan world.
