Hope for Vegans in Jesus

David3

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I know atheists are wonderful because they tell me so themselves at every opportunity. Lol

Atheists engage in indoctrination.



Atheists can be irrational.


And theists are on occasion reasonable.


.
Some believers engage in similar activities. Let’s not engage in “who is better” exchanges.
 

Huckleberry

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Seriously? if your going to take that route, then I could list all of the violence Theist have committed throughout human history.

Preventing people from practicing their religion is not the same as the indoctrination of a young child. Apples and oranges.

BTW - The violence committed by certain groups has no bearing on whether deities exist or not. There is simply no correlation.

Your WSJ article is an opinion piece. Aside from that, assuming that's correct, how does believing in bigfoot prove god exists? Also a lot of QAnon conspiracy theorist are Christian.

As a side note. Belief in bigfoot is more grounded in reality than belief in a deity. That is, it is within the realms of biology and physics for a big furry man to exist, whereas it is completely outside the realms of physics for a deity to exist.


Further, three of the articles are from obviously biased sources.

Which Atheist tell you that they are wonderful every day? Or are you just blowing smoke? Arrogance has no bearing on whether deities exist or not. And there are plenty of arrogant Theists.

This is a vegan forum. Stop tossing so many red herrings...
Are you denying the existence of atheist indoctrination?

Quote: But in recent years, the Chinese Communist Party has arbitrarily detained between 1 million and 3 million other Uighurs in so-called “reeducation centers” and forced them to undergo psychological indoctrination programs, such as studying communist propaganda and giving thanks to Chinese President Xi Jinping. Chinese officials have also reportedly used waterboarding and other forms of torture, including sexual abuse, as part of the indoctrination process.

Link: Concentration camps and forced labor: China’s repression of the Uighurs, explained

More indoctrination and murder from atheists: Why the Soviet attempt to stamp out religion failed | Giles Fraser: Loose canon

Not a few right-wing nuts are atheists: Too Many Atheists Are Veering Dangerously Toward the Alt-Right
 
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Mostly Random Dude

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Remember the worst war in history, WWII, was started by Hitler and Stalin, who both hated Christianity.
Actually, Nazis and Christianity coexisted rather well, there are many scholarly articles on this topic. While it's very fashionable to bring up the the WWII, plenty of other genocidal conflicts were started under religious or quasi-religious auspices.
Some atheist suicide bombers: NPR Cookie Consent and Choices
Even though Tamil Tigers as an organization is secular, most of the members are Hindus, not atheists.

There is nothing new in the arguments you bring up and most of these arguments are antiscientific and silly. There is a reason why it's called faith and not a scientific hypothesis. Look, I get it. From your perspective, Jesus is the shizzle and you want spread the word about how awesome the whole package is. Nonetheless, you've got to realize that there are plenty of people like myself who don't know God exists and, quite frankly, don't care if. Even if there is "something bigger and more powerful than me" (and there surely is, like fire trucks, elephants and central banks), we still don't know which religion is the right one.

However, one thing is undeniable - religion is a great business. Take any religion, Catholic Church, Islam or some random cult and it's making someone rich. I recall reading that the Catholic Church is the biggest landowner in Europe and possibly the world. This is all while they get awesome tax-breaks from the government and sell an invisible product to people who are generally less educated. So pardon me if I continue thinking that Jesus was a street magician and that any religion is a confidence scam.
 
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Huckleberry

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Actually, Nazis and Christianity coexisted rather well, there are many scholarly articles on this topic. While it's very fashionable to bring up the the WWII, plenty of other genocidal conflicts were started under religious or quasi-religious auspices.

Even though Tamil Tigers as an organization is secular, most of the members are Hindus, not atheists.

There is nothing new in the arguments you bring up and most of these arguments are antiscientific and silly. There is a reason why it's called faith and not a scientific hypothesis. Look, I get it. From your perspective, Jesus is the shizzle and you want spread the word about how awesome the whole package is. Nonetheless, you've got to realize that there are plenty of people like myself who don't know God exists and, quite frankly, don't care if. Even if there is "something bigger and more powerful than me" (and there surely is, like fire trucks, elephants and central banks), we still don't know which religion is the right one.

However, one thing is undeniable - religion is a great business. Take any religion, Catholic Church, Islam or some random cult and it's making someone rich. I recall reading that the Catholic Church is the biggest landowner in Europe and possibly the world. This is all while they get awesome tax-breaks from the government and sell an invisible product to people who are generally less educated. So pardon me if I continue thinking that Jesus was a street magician and that any religion is a confidence scam.
You wrote “I recall reading that the Catholic Church is the biggest landowner in Europe and possibly the world.”

Instead of relying on vague wisps of memory why not get your facts straight before you attack religious folk? You don’t want people to think you are an ignorant bigot do you?

The Tamil Tigers are Marxists and atheists. See the article I linked to for the evidence. You shouldn’t malign Hindus.

Hitler hated Christianity and the Nazis persecuted Christians. See: You Mean Hitler Wasn’t A Priest? | WWRN - World-wide Religious News

If you are looking for scams go to the “New Atheists”. They have books and tax-exempt organizations to promote and all they have to sell is outdated philosophy, lies, and hate.



 
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StrangeOtter

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Is religion somehow bad, hamful or inferior? No. Can it be corrupted? Yes. It's like that with everything and everyone else in this world. Take Daniel Suelo for as an example, he is a follower of Jesus and he has devoted his life in giving, not taking. If more people would be like Suelo, instead of being intolerant and angry towards religion, females or sexual minorities, world could be a better place.
Are religious people somehow less intelligent? I don't think so, even though I haven't met every single religious person on this planet. But I have met a lot of religious people and most of them have been nerds and intellectuals. And, well, I'm highly logical at least according to the neurologist. Even if I'm not an intellectual or a savant, at least I have my logic if that means anything. I grew up in a household where females, spirituality and religion were thought of as stupid. I find that attitude harmful. But we are all humans and humans make mistakes. I'm hoping that we can learn, grow and be more compassionate towards everyone, even if we see others as less intelligent, inferior or somehow against our beliefs and way of life.
 
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Dougrus

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Meow. Meow. It was the sound of a cat! I was still young, maybe in my preteen or early teenage years, and I really liked animals so I naturally got very excited. We lived in an old house and it sounded like the meowing was coming from one of the bathrooms. I went into the bathroom and this particular bathroom had an old metal grate in the floor that allowed ventilation to come from the crawl space beneath the house. I pulled the metal grate away and sure enough I saw a little orange cat down below. She was meowing in distress as if she were lost. I reached down through the hole and was delighted that the cat didn't try to run away. I picked her up into my arms and we instantly became like family. My mother liked cats and allowed us to keep her, so that day we gained a new household pet.

It was perhaps several years later that our cat got hit by a car. She couldn't stand up and I was very concerned whether she would survive or not. My mother and I brought her to a veterinary hospital where she stayed overnight and underwent surgery. The reason she's willing to pay for the surgery, my mother explained, was because she could tell I cared about the cat so much, and was willing to help care for her. When we finally got news back from the veterinarian, I was happy to hear that she would survive, and I had to keep her in a large wooden crate and nurse her back to health until she could walk again. Her pelvis was broken and her tail would need to be amputated because it was dragging along the ground and she couldn't raise it or move it anymore. She eventually healed and developed a way of walking or hopping rather like a bunny rabbit. She had only a stump of a tail left but she was full of life.

The years went by and our cat got older along with me and eventually we noticed we didn't see her outside anymore. We searched the neighborhood but couldn't find her. So after many months, it became apparent that she most likely wouldn't come back. She may have been eaten by a coyote, or perhaps struck by another car, or maybe died from old age. Have you ever felt someone was so precious that you knew they weren't meant to simply die and be gone forever? That's how I feel about our cat. When my grandmother passed away, I felt the same way. Did you know that God feels that same way about us? Not only has he known us our whole lives, he also created us:

Please read Psalm 100:3.

Since he made us he doesn't want us to die:

Please read 2 Peter 3:9.

When a car breaks, or a computer, we can bring it back to the manufacturer who is able to rebuild and refurbish it. Doctors can only do so much to heal a person or pet who is ill or deteriorating from age. But God, the potter who made us is able to to raise us up again even after we perish. He can bring us back to life, and as a testimony he raised his own son back to life:

Please read 1 Corinthians 15:1-8.

Paul told the inhabitants of Corinth that over five hundred witnesses saw Jesus, at the same time, after he was resurrected. James his brother saw Jesus also, and his own brother could hardly mistake him. Peter who is the friend of Jesus also saw Jesus after he died and rose again, and wrote plainly they were eyewitnesses and were not telling fables:

Please read 2 Peter 1:16.

To whoever has ears to hear, I am writing this so that you also may come to know Jesus the messiah and our creator in whom alone we may be raised up to life again. So that you may know God's love for us, and may have eternal life where you may see those you care about again. Your pets or family members or close friends. In this thread I hope to present the teachings of Jesus from the bible and especially address questions which members of the vegan community may have:

Do pets go to heaven?
What does Jesus teach about eating meat?
What is the healthiest diet for people?
Will we ever live in a world where everyone is vegan?
Where did people come from in the beginning?
What is the meaning of life?
How do we determine right from wrong?
How can I receive eternal life?
Is there such a place as hell?
Will Jesus return to earth?
How may my sins be forgiven?
What is the mark of the beast?

You, dear reader may ask questions if you are sincerely wanting to understand God's word:

Please read Jeremiah 29:13.

I greatly appreciate your readership and being allowed use of this forum as a way of communicating with others.

Sincerely

Josef
Why are you evangelizing on a vegan forum? Quite different from merely "communicating with others". Perhaps the first four questions are somewhat relevant to this forum but the rest have no place here. So to start the discussion, the only place I can recall where animals are extensively discussed in the bible is in Leviticus where it outlines how they are to be properly slaughtered and burned as offerings to God.

But for anyone wondering about those somewhat relevant first four questions....Ill take a stab.

Do pets go to heaven? Not from a Christian standpoint, as they do not have souls and can not be saved and therefore can not go to heaven.
What does Jesus teach about eating meat? He eats it so... whatever else you were going to say...
What is the healthiest diet for people? If you can show me in the bible where Jesus weighs in on this Im all ears to his his first century wisdom on health and medical matters.
Will we ever live in a world where everyone is vegan? Not sure if Revelations writes about what it will be like after rapture (actually I do know ...it doesnt) but if the holy lord did declare veganism for humans as a law, Im sure there will be a lot of disappointed bible belt Christians out there if they cant have ribs and burgers with Jesus in the afterlfe while the rest of us are swarmed by locusts, fires and eternal torment.

Anyway, I may be a bit rude in saying please keep your religion out of this forum. We discuss issues of veganism and diet here and what you are throwing down has no place here in my opinion. Frankly, I am surprised that the thread hasnt been deleted but Im always up for a good philosophical debate so Ill make the most of it.
 
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Mostly Random Dude

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You wrote “I recall reading that the Catholic Church is the biggest landowner in Europe and possibly the world.”

Instead of relying on vague wisps of memory why not get your facts straight before you attack religious folk? You don’t want people to think you are an ignorant bigot do you?
The Catholic Church owns roughly 177 million acres of land. It is the largest non-governmental land owner in the world.
The Economist Digs Into the American Catholic Church’s Finances, Finds That Cardinal Dolan Is Manhattan’s Largest Landowner
There you go, because I am an educated bigot :|

Hitler hated Christianity and the Nazis persecuted Christians. See: You Mean Hitler Wasn’t A Priest? | WWRN - World-wide Religious News
Not really and not always, apparently:
In the Name of the Cross: Christianity and Anti-Semitic Propaganda in Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy
The Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, 1919-1945: Steigmann-Gall, Richard: 9780521603522: Amazon.com: Books

If you are looking for scams go to the “New Atheists”. They have books and tax-exempt organizations to promote and all they have to sell is outdated philosophy, lies, and hate.
You can say the same things about any organized religion.

Anyway, on the topic of "Hope for Vegans in Jesus":

(a) Jesus obviously was not a vegan and not even a vegetarian:
Luke 24:41–43
"And while they still disbelieved for joy and were marveling, he said to them, 'Have you anything here to eat?' They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate before them."

(b) the Old Testament (which is "another" Christian Holy Book) condones eating meat and commands animal sacrifices..
Genesis 9:3
“Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.”
Genesis 4:4–5
"and Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat portions. And the Lord whad regard for Abel and his offering, but for Cain and his offering he had no regard."

(c) God explicitly tells Noah (and thus others) to eat meat after the flood
Genesis 9:3
“Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.”

Looks pretty hopeless to me.
 

beancounter

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Are you denying the existence of atheist indoctrination?

Quote: But in recent years, the Chinese Communist Party has arbitrarily detained between 1 million and 3 million other Uighurs in so-called “reeducation centers” and forced them to undergo psychological indoctrination programs, such as studying communist propaganda and giving thanks to Chinese President Xi Jinping. Chinese officials have also reportedly used waterboarding and other forms of torture, including sexual abuse, as part of the indoctrination process.

Link: Concentration camps and forced labor: China’s repression of the Uighurs, explained

More indoctrination and murder from atheists: Why the Soviet attempt to stamp out religion failed | Giles Fraser: Loose canon

Not a few right-wing nuts are atheists: Too Many Atheists Are Veering Dangerously Toward the Alt-Right

Indoctrination is teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.
A child is a blank slate. Whereas an adult who already believes in the existence of a deity will not stop believing (even if they pretend to stop believing)

As for Christian violence:
 

beancounter

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Remember the worst war in history, WWII, was started by Hitler and Stalin, who both hated Christianity.

Most wars are fought for national glory or land.

Some atheist suicide bombers: NPR Cookie Consent and Choices

Congratulations on being the first person in this thread to invoke Godwin's Law. :)

btw, they didn't hate Christianity specifically. They hated ANY challenge to their authority.

That's why they attempted to eliminate as many intellectuals as possible (both religious and secular.)


I'm really tired of this Christian persecution complex. There is no war on Christianity or Christmas. The first is people simply expressing their opinion, which they have a right to do. Just because you don't like their opinion, doesn't mean they're engaging in a war against you. Strange how Christains always want to frame things in terms of violence "war"...


The second is just people trying to be inclusive. (Just so you know, Christmas isn't the only December holiday...) So "happy Holidays" is actual accurate, and all inclusive. That's right, the statement includes Christmas...
 
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Huckleberry

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Why are you evangelizing on a vegan forum? Quite different from merely "communicating with others". Perhaps the first four questions are somewhat relevant to this forum but the rest have no place here. So to start the discussion, the only place I can recall where animals are extensively discussed in the bible is in Leviticus where it outlines how they are to be properly slaughtered and burned as offerings to God.

But for anyone wondering about those somewhat relevant first four questions....Ill take a stab.

Do pets go to heaven? Not from a Christian standpoint, as they do not have souls and can not be saved and therefore can not go to heaven.
What does Jesus teach about eating meat? He eats it so... whatever else you were going to say...
What is the healthiest diet for people? If you can show me in the bible where Jesus weighs in on this Im all ears to his his first century wisdom on health and medical matters.
Will we ever live in a world where everyone is vegan? Not sure if Revelations writes about what it will be like after rapture (actually I do know ...it doesnt) but if the holy lord did declare veganism for humans as a law, Im sure there will be a lot of disappointed bible belt Christians out there if they cant have ribs and burgers with Jesus in the afterlfe while the rest of us are swarmed by locusts, fires and eternal torment.

Anyway, I may be a bit rude in saying please keep your religion out of this forum. We discuss issues of veganism and diet here and what you are throwing down has no place here in my opinion. Frankly, I am surprised that the thread hasnt been deleted but Im always up for a good philosophical debate so Ill make the most of it.
Wow, I thought vegans were open-minded and tolerant! If someone wants to discuss their religion let’s not talk about deleting their views. If you are not interested in the topic I have a solution: find another thread with a topic that does interest you.

Regarding pets and Heaven: Do Dogs Go to Heaven? A Christian Perspective
 
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Huckleberry

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Congratulations on being the first person in this thread to invoke Godwin's Law. :)

btw, they didn't hate Christianity specifically. They hated ANY challenge to their authority.

That's why they attempted to eliminate as many intellectuals as possible (both religious and secular.)


I'm really tired of this Christian persecution complex. There is no war on Christianity or Christmas. The first is people simply expressing their opinion, which they have a right to do. Just because you don't like their opinion, doesn't mean they're engaging in a war against you. Strange how Christains always want to frame things in terms of violence "war"...


The second is just people trying to be inclusive. (Just so you know, Christmas isn't the only December holiday...) So "happy Holidays" is actual accurate, and all inclusive. That's right, the statement includes Christmas...

You may be tired of hearing about atheists persecuting religious folk, but I think most people want to put a stop to the human rights violations by, for example, the Chinese Communist Party.

 

Huckleberry

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Indoctrination is teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.
A child is a blank slate. Whereas an adult who already believes in the existence of a deity will not stop believing (even if they pretend to stop believing)

As for Christian violence:

Please accept the facts and admit that atheists engage in indoctrination. Obviously adults can be indoctrinated. Moreover children are indoctrinated to submit to atheism in Communist countries: China: Schoolchildren taught to 'hate God,' Christianity an 'evil cult'


I’m sure you acknowledge and condemn this indoctrination:

Also consider: Communist terrorism - Wikipedia

Your article criticizes Jews, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus. Can you admit that atheists have committed terrible crimes?

Quote from your article: The three leading candidates for crimes against humanity in the 20th century—Hitler, Stalin and Mao—weren’t religiously motivated.

Let’s add mass murderers like the secular Young Turks and Pol Pot.

Also remember anti-religious people are much less numerous than religious folk, yet this minority of secularists is responsible for a tremendous amount of carnage.
 
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David3

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Please accept the facts and admit that atheists engage in indoctrination. Obviously adults can be indoctrinated. Moreover children are indoctrinated to submit to atheism in Communist countries: China: Schoolchildren taught to 'hate God,' Christianity an 'evil cult'

Quote from your article: The three leading candidates for crimes against humanity in the 20th century—Hitler, Stalin and Mao—weren’t religiously motivated.

Let’s add mass murderers like the secular Young Turks and Pol Pot.

Also remember anti-religious people are much less numerous than religious folk, yet this minority of secularists is responsible for a tremendous amount of carnage.
.
Enough of the "our side is better than yours" exchange. There is bad behavior all around.
.
 

Huckleberry

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The Catholic Church owns roughly 177 million acres of land. It is the largest non-governmental land owner in the world.
The Economist Digs Into the American Catholic Church’s Finances, Finds That Cardinal Dolan Is Manhattan’s Largest Landowner
There you go, because I am an educated bigot :|


Not really and not always, apparently:
In the Name of the Cross: Christianity and Anti-Semitic Propaganda in Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy
The Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, 1919-1945: Steigmann-Gall, Richard: 9780521603522: Amazon.com: Books


You can say the same things about any organized religion.

Anyway, on the topic of "Hope for Vegans in Jesus":

(a) Jesus obviously was not a vegan and not even a vegetarian:
Luke 24:41–43
"And while they still disbelieved for joy and were marveling, he said to them, 'Have you anything here to eat?' They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate before them."

(b) the Old Testament (which is "another" Christian Holy Book) condones eating meat and commands animal sacrifices..
Genesis 9:3
“Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.”
Genesis 4:4–5
"and Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat portions. And the Lord whad regard for Abel and his offering, but for Cain and his offering he had no regard."

(c) God explicitly tells Noah (and thus others) to eat meat after the flood
Genesis 9:3
“Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.”

Looks pretty hopeless to me.

I commend you for admitting you were totally wrong and that some governments own more land than the Catholic Church.

Also consider: Catholic Church: World’s biggest charitable organization

Anyway doesn’t Jeff Bezos have all the money in the world? Lol If you don’t like ill-gotten gains shouldn’t you condemn such billionaires?

You call yourself an “educated bigot”. Maybe “bigot who figured out how to use Google” might be more accurate?

The anti-Christian Nazis:



Regarding Jesus and meat:


 
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beancounter

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Quote about the alt-right: there are a lot of agnostics and atheists or people who are just generally indifferent to religion.

Link: NPR Cookie Consent and Choices

George Hawley is a professor at the University of Alabama, teaches a course on conservatism, and has co authored 3 books on Lutheranism.

In other words, a biased source.

Of course he's going to claim that Atheist and secularist were the largest groups at at Charlottesville....
 

Mostly Random Dude

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I commend you for admitting you were totally wrong and that some governments own more land than the Catholic Church.
LOL. Government own everything by definition (consider Eminent domain) and it's pretty clear that I was talking about private organizations to begin with. I see you did not comment of the fact that Church is an ultra-rich business and that business' primary source of income is donations. Odd.

Anyway doesn’t Jeff Bezos have all the money in the world? Lol If you don’t like ill-gotten gains shouldn’t you condemn such billionaires?
Unlike the organized religions, Bezos adds tangible value to the economy and pays a lot of taxes. He is not exploiting peoples insecurities to extort fees "for the next world".
You call yourself an “educated bigot”. Maybe “bigot who figured out how to use Google” might be more accurate?
It's not any different from your approach early in the where you are spraying us with youtube videos about math while knowing little about the subject. In any case, regardless of how my sources are found (google, of course), they are sources that have been well researched and unbiased. So far you have not made any real attempts to refute them with similar quality sources.


Bible explicitly says that he ate fish himself and cooked fish for his disciples. But when it's convenient for recruitment purposes, suddenly it's all metaphysics and not literal. LOL.
 

Huckleberry

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George Hawley is a professor at the University of Alabama, teaches a course on conservatism, and has co authored 3 books on Lutheranism.

In other words, a biased source.

Of course he's going to claim that Atheist and secularist were the largest groups at at Charlottesville....
You really should admit that atheists indoctrinate.

You think because Hawley is knowledgeable about religion and conservatism he must be biased?! Someone could teach a course about conservatism and be very liberal!

Anyway, what books did he write specifically about Lutheranism?