Can eggs be vegan-friendly?

[mistiq]

(your post only partially quoted) If you were joking, then my reply here is pretty much irrelevant- but communication would quickly become impossible if words did not have precise meanings. I'm thinking of the scene in Lewis Carrol's "Through The Looking Glass", where Humpty Dumpty tells Alice that when he uses a word, it means whatever he wants it to mean.

I acknowledge that these meanings can change over time.

i dunno ... i guess i like contemplating and having a yarn ... great way to learn of new things ... always do my best to have an open mind

per se... i was just looking into the idea of wheat being a hallucinogen and discovered that rye grass is most susseptible to such a thing

they call this ergotism which has historically been linked to mass hysteria {such the the salem witch trials where 19 people were exectured}

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

and since "maize" in my home tongue language means "bread"

why the heck wouldn't we shift to "corn maize / bread" ???

easily cooked like any 3 ingredient damper or sourdough (and no need for the inclusion of eggs) #happydays #lovinglife

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

based on covid 19 and all the other crazy things going on around the world

one would consider hemp flour or even lentil flour or even bunya nut flower or sunflower seed flower if corn ain't your thing

i'm all for shifting cycles of time and evolving into the future

 

[g0rph]

i dunno ... i guess i like contemplating and having a yarn ... great way to learn of new things ... always do my best to have an open mind

per se... i was just looking into the idea of wheat being a hallucinogen and discovered that rye grass is most susseptible to such a thing

they call this ergotism which has historically been linked to mass hysteria {such the the salem witch trials where 19 people were exectured}

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

and since "maize" in my home tongue language means "bread"

why the heck wouldn't we shift to "corn maize / bread" ???

easily cooked like any 3 ingredient damper or sourdough (and no need for the inclusion of eggs) #happydays #lovinglife

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

based on covid 19 and all the other crazy things going on around the world

one would consider hemp flour or even lentil flour or even bunya nut flower or sunflower seed flower if corn ain't your thing

i'm all for shifting cycles of time and evolving into the future

The thing is, wheat bread is fantastic. A French baguette, a Greek Horiatiko Psomi
I can't get enough!
And what about seitan!


(And I am mildly gluten intolerant).

 

[g0rph]

yes, although i consider evolution to be an important contributing factor

Evolution is incredibly important.
And both our physiology and sense of morality have and are evolving.

Bear-baiting, Cock fighting, Dog-fighting etc all were once accepted and considered normal.

In 16th Century France, cats were seen as unlucky. They had a practice of filling a net full of live cats and lowering them into a bonfire.

Thankfully, we are moving away from this type of thing...Far too slowly for you and me of course, but it's happening.

There will be a day when we regard the consumption of animals as a last-resort, although I doubt we will ever see a vegan world.

 

[Lou]

Evolution is incredibly important.
....

Thankfully, we are moving away from this type of thing...Far too slowly for you and me of course, but it's happening.

Unfortutenetly is seems like humans are only too happy to make up and embrace new myths.
Examples of 21 century superstitions.

vaccines cause autism.
The 2020 election was stolen
vaccines are dangerous
.....

There will be a day when we regard the consumption of animals as a last-resort, although I doubt we will ever see a vegan world.

probably never see a vegan world, there will probably all be some people who need to exploit animals. But it would be great if animal exploitation was viewed by society as a sin,

 

[Ruthie]

Humans have so many 'waste' products that can save the lives of others, yet we have laws prohibiting their use without the persons consent.
Umbilical cords--https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/23981-cord-blood-banking
Organ donations--cannot use the functioning organs after someone dies if they hadn't given permission

I could change my mind if these FAR more necessary uses of animal products were allowed

This is interesting. Here is a post from my farmer friend Yolanda who posed this question in our FB Farmers and Vegans discussion group.

"Can eggs be vegan friendly?
I think they can in an ethical sense. After all. Veganism is an ethical stance.
I believe my eggs do fall into the category of vegan friendly. I give most of my eggs away and I have ordered a stamp to go on my egg cartons to outline their status.

Why vegan friendly?:
* Heritage chickens: bloodlines dating back to the 1950's. No male chicks ever killed at birth. No excess egg laying that can be hard on a hen's body.
* Naturally bred: all chickens naturally mated and raised by broody hens.
* natural lifespan: hens stay on the farm for life.
* 100% pasture raised: there is no limit to where these chickens roam.
* organic: not necessarily a vegan thing. But they are.

The only thing that may be considered not vegan friendly is that excess roosters are culled for the protection of the hens. Too many roosters are harmful and stressful to a hen's health. However I don't see it as any less vegan than animals killed in the protection of crops. The difference being, their bodies are also utilised for food. Both human and dog food. They are grown out to adulthood, free ranging on pasture and dispatched quickly on farm.

I am currently experimenting with a method to reduce male chickens hatching. Regardless. There is only a small amount of chickens hatched each year since all hens stay for life and will continue to produce eggs. My oldest hens are 8 years old and still lay."

What do you think? I would say Yolanda's eggs are indeed vegan-friendly and my wife and I usually get several dozen every few months. They are delicious eggs.

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Hello ,
no way .. Eggs are an animal product and even well-looked after hens are still being slaves .. Slaves so humans can eat their eggs .. and the roosters getting killed ? Come on - there's nothing ethical in slavery or killing "excess" roosters .. Regardless of what happens to unfertilised eggs in nature , it is NOT our right to keep slaves ..
That's it from me ,
Ruthie

 

[g0rph]

Unfortutenetly is seems like humans are only too happy to make up and embrace new myths.
Examples of 21 century superstitions.

vaccines cause autism.
The 2020 election was stolen
vaccines are dangerous
.....


probably never see a vegan world, there will probably all be some people who need to exploit animals. But it would be great if animal exploitation was viewed by society as a sin,

Agreed. Although I prefer "viewed as immoral".

"Sin" sounds like religious talk. And we all know just how sinful "Making graven images" or "coveting your neighbour's possessions" are.

 

[allindogecoin]

I think a good way to test the ethics of any animal exploitation arrangement is to simply substitute humans into it as many of us have a bias to humans due to socialisation. So imagine a farm where humans are bred so their secretions can be sold and on this farm the business finds that female human secretions have high market value, so male humans who are born are excess to requirements and are culled. This to me likely resembles or is analogous to how actual sex trafficking businesses operate. Based on this, I'd be personally against any arrangement where chicken or humans are bred and exploited so their secretions are sold.

 

[Graeme M]

I think a good way to test the ethics of any animal exploitation arrangement is to simply substitute humans into it as many of us have a bias to humans due to socialisation.

I agree this is a great way to approach things, with the difference that I think we need to do so with care. At the end of the day, other animals are food and resources. I don't think vegan ethics seek to change that truth. It's just saying that because using animals that way can be an injustice, we should try to minimise that injustice as much as we can.

 

[g0rph]

I agree this is a great way to approach things, with the difference that I think we need to do so with care. At the end of the day, other animals are food and resources. I don't think vegan ethics seek to change that truth. It's just saying that because using animals that way can be an injustice, we should try to minimise that injustice as much as we can.

Surely that's exactly what vegan ethics seek to change?
i.e. To end the exploitation of non-human animals.

I also think that "inserting humans" is a rocky road when discussing the ethics of an exploitation arrangement.
I mean, many vegans cry "rape" when discussing artificial insemination. It isn't rape, even if it's immoral, and suggesting such is really undermining the pain and long-term psychological suffering of actual rape-victims.

Of course I think it should end ASAP, but a cow that is AI'd will be trotting around the paddock, field, whatever, munching grass with not a care in the world an hour later.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

The only thing that may be considered not vegan friendly is that excess roosters are culled for the protection of the hens.

I think this is the big problem for me and often this happens with so-called ethical eggs. Someone gets killed. How can it be vegan-friendly if someone is killed? Yes, it's a significant improvement on factory farmed eggs, in the same way that stealing $10 from someone is a significant improvement on stealing all their money - but it's still only the lesser of two evils.

If you could fix this issue somehow you might be getting somewhere, but if paying $$$$ to keep some old birds alive is the only way to have ethical eggs you then have a problem that you create an incentive to secretly kill off some of these birds and lie about it. So how you can be sure that's not happening? Incentives creates outcomes.

It would be easier to eat a vegan food.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

I did for a while go and buy some eggs for a period of time a few years ago to give to my daughter to stop her eating (as many) factory farmed eggs, but I never ate any myself, and only did so after trying and failing to get her to give up eggs.

 

[g0rph]

I think this is the big problem for me and often this happens with so-called ethical eggs. Someone gets killed. How can it be vegan-friendly if someone is killed? Yes, it's a significant improvement on factory farmed eggs, in the same way that stealing $10 from someone is a significant improvement on stealing all their money - but it's still only the lesser of two evils.

If you could fix this issue somehow you might be getting somewhere, but if paying $$$$ to keep some old birds alive is the only way to have ethical eggs you then have a problem that you create an incentive to secretly kill off some of these birds and lie about it. So how you can be sure that's not happening? Incentives creates outcomes.

It would be easier to eat a vegan food.

You are being too nice.

It's pretty disgusting exploitation and not in the slightest bit aligned with even vaguely vegan morals.
I mean "The only thing that may be considered not vegan friendly is that excess roosters are culled for the protection of the hens"*
might as well say "Well I am vegan apart from killing defenseless animals(that are specifically bred on purpose) because I want eggs."

It's pathetic to be honest.
A hunter killing a couple of deer a year and stocking the freezer is more vegan than this tw4t (The farmer that is).

 

[silva]

The idea of eggs from pet hens is more a feel good flex. People spend extra money now and then and brag about it, but don't really care in between.
The reality is cheap grocery store eggs are a convenient, affordable, and easy to prepare food for many families. Few have the resources to keep "pet hens" themselves as the upkeep and costs involved take away their benefit.
It would be far better to guide them to chickpea and black salt omelets, which are just as convenient, affordable and easy to prepare.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

The idea of eggs from pet hens is more a feel good flex. People spend extra money now and then and brag about it, but don't really care in between.

This sort of argument also reminds me of organic, high-welfare meat from a fancy supermarket. Which in practice is probably just still factory farming, but slightly less evil. But what do the people who do that do in McDonald or when they need quick street food and there are hog dogs on sale. They get whatever is convenient.

I did a blog about this once: Family Farms

 

[Jamie in Chile]

It's pathetic to be honest.
A hunter killing a couple of deer a year and stocking the freezer is more vegan than this tw4t.

You may disagree with them, but there's no need for "pathetic" or "tw4t". The post did not warrant such a response and even if it did it might still be best not to use that kind of language.

 

[1956]

You may disagree with them, but there's no need for "pathetic" or "tw4t". The post did not warrant such a response and even if it did it might still be best not to use that kind of language.

I haven’t a clue what “ tw4t” means!

 

[allindogecoin]

I agree this is a great way to approach things, with the difference that I think we need to do so with care. At the end of the day, other animals are food and resources. I don't think vegan ethics seek to change that truth. It's just saying that because using animals that way can be an injustice, we should try to minimise that injustice as much as we can.

This is the abolitionism vs welfarism debate, that is, we can seek to end exploitation completely (abolition) or accept exploitation but minimize harm (welfarism). Abolitionism vs welfarism can apply to non-humans as well as humans.

The principle of substituting humans in place of animals also applies here because abolitionism vs welfarism can apply to humans e.g. sex tourism is common in some places and there are those who seek to criminalize it and end it completely vs the welfarist approach whereby it is accepted that sex tourism happens but e.g. there are attempts to enhance sex workers rights by promoting condom use. A good example of this is Thailand where sex work is illegal but in practice it is common, and there are organisations and individuals who instead focus on sex worker welfare by promoting condom use (e.g. Thailand's Condom King).

 

[g0rph]

You may disagree with them, but there's no need for "pathetic" or "tw4t". The post did not warrant such a response and even if it did it might still be best not to use that kind of language.

Tp be honest, I think it is warranted.
If someone is not vegan, or not plant-based or trying to make a difference, they should own it.

There is no "vegan apart from killing innocent cockerels" - that isn't a thing.

I'm all for encouraging vegetarians to take the next step, rather than denigrating them. I'm all for getting people to do veganuary or meatless mondays.
And I understand that for some people, going against the social norms can be extremely psychologically difficult.
But I detest lame excuses.
Sorry if it offended though. But seeing as it's been Christmas and I am the only "vegan" I know, it's been extremely taxing...grinning and bearing it whilst everyone around me tucks into dead pig, cow, sheep, chicken.
Blegh.

 

[Graeme M]

Surely that's exactly what vegan ethics seek to change?
i.e. To end the exploitation of non-human animals.

Veganism/vegan ethics/animal rights seek to end the unfair use of other animals and unnecessary cruelty, when we can do that. I'm sure most of us here agree that when it's not possible or practicable, it's at least acceptable though perhaps regrettable to use or kill animals. I can't imagine any vegan killing large numbers of humans by driving their car, but we accept that all day long for animals. Few vegans would argue that it's OK to kill 20 or 30 itinerant humans on every hectare of croplands, but we accept that for animals every time we buy food at a shop. The bottom line is that animals can be pests, they can be threats, they can be resources and they can be food. And any time we don't have all the benefits of a modern Western society, they are resources and food. I don't see what's wrong with accepting that reality but still advocating to be fair to them when we can do that. We just cannot do it all the time in every context.

As for unpleasant people being nasty towards me because I eat some eggs, that illustrates the fundamental failure of vegan advocacy. For some reason, vegans (like a lot of people, I guess) fall back onto nasty personal insult when their cherished notions are challenged. The eggs I get from my farmer friend are absolutely vegan-friendly, and far more so than many plant-sourced foods most of you buy commercially at a shop. Failing to see that underlines why veganism is so poorly appreciated by most folk.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

There is a moral difference between an animal being accidentally killed while crops are harvested vs actually taking a weapon and deliberately killing someone as in the culling roosters example. It's the difference between you hit someone accidentally while driving a car, vs you deliberately shoot someone with a gun. Most people would accept the latter is worse than the former.