US Politics-2021

[silva]

I’d like to think that won’t happen if everyone keeps their emotions in check. I’m guilty of spewing not so nice things about Trump because I felt safe doing so and knew several other members were in agreement of my views about him.
I admit that if you came in here saying how great you thought he was that it would be difficult for me to listen to that. But if you are genuine in what you say and strive for an intelligent debate, I’d like to think most of us could do the same.

I never would have thought the W Bush era was a time of civil debate . I worked next to a staunch republican, and while it may have gotten a bit heated, and felt the other saw things wrong, we never thought the other was crazy. We kinda looked forward to getting our views across to the other.
The only time I talked to someone who "liked some of rumps policies" that's as far as it went--or else they were crazy! I can accept the 'some of ... policies.

 

[anarchist100]

I never would have thought the W Bush era was a time of civil debate . I worked next to a staunch republican, and while it may have gotten a bit heated, and felt the other saw things wrong, we never thought the other was crazy. We kinda looked forward to getting our views across to the other.
The only time I talked to someone who "liked some of rumps policies" that's as far as it went--or else they were crazy! I can accept the 'some of ... policies.

Trump is better than Bush.

 

[Lou]

Trump is better than Bush.

Maybe. It would be close. And they are hard to compare. But saying one is better than the other is sort of saying something like forest fires are better natural disasters than hurricanes.
Bush the 2nd started two wars that are still not over. About 5000 American servicemen were killed in both wars. Although if you start counting all the people who died because of the wars the number is probably in the hundreds of thousands.

Trump didn't start Covid, but he didn't help control it. You could take the number of deaths as a percent of population of any other country and compare the number of deaths in America. I think I could put some of those deaths on Trump's doorstep. Probably in the hundred of thousands, too.

 

[1956]

Actually, I probably shouldn’t admit this on the world wide internet, lol, but I’ve been a conservative Republican my entire life. My views started changing when I became vegetarian in 2004, and then tried my hand at vegan in 2005...still striving for perfection in that regard. I still hold certain conservative values but they don’t seem to match the Republicans of today. When I try to blend my Catholic views with conservatives of today, they clash terribly. You can’t use Jesus as a point of argument and then go and vote against all He teaches by voting in someone like Donald Trump.

Thank you KLS52 for being So honest...I am hoping that at least some of the republicans who voted for trump the second time will someday come to the realisation that you have ( you are already smarter than Most republicans )because following trump or the next wannabe trump is down right Dangerous! The worst part is that he didn’t even really help the people who voted for him... I consider myself as a progressive liberal and the Greens would be my party of choice although I am realistic enough to know that they will not be in power in my life time... Having different views, beliefs and political differences isn’t a bad thing in my opinion...Until they become crazy or hurtful...

 

[KLS52]

Trump is better than Bush.

This is why discussion about this is so difficult for me...I can’t compare DT to any other President. It goes beyond parties and policy issues. It has to do with moral character.

At the risk of sounding disrespectful, which I’m honestly not trying to do, he just isn’t a decent human being. You can’t do and say the things that he says and does and think he is ok to lead a country. I find him to be extremely self serving and not doing anything because he cares about the country and the people.

And I am not referring to anything in his personal life. I am referring to what I’ve witnessed in just the four years that he was President.

 

[Lou]

There is a Chinese curse/blessing: May you live in interesting times.

The Trump years were interesting in a very bad way.
Now with Biden in office I am still finding the news interesting, in a good way.
The news I find most interesting now it the stuff going on with Biden and the Congress about the budget. (OMG, I can't believe I am finding the f-ing budget interesting).

So for reasons that I don't really understand Biden has split his program into 4 bills. I'm assuming the splitting up is because just one huge one would take really a long time to finish. So do them one at a time. Maybe you can have 3 done in the time it would have taken to get one big one done.

Anyway I have been reading in the news about the reconciliation process. In a nutshell it is a mechanism that allows for the Democrats to pass a budget without a supermajority. It has some limitations and the most important is that it can only be used once per budget. But it wasn't used last session so the Democrats have two of these in their back pockets. They also could end or limit the filibuster at any time.

The Democrats and Biden are hesitant to use these tools because they have said they want to bring unity. But the thing is that they have these tools. The way I see it is that Dems can just say across the negotiating table, "get on board or get left at the station".

Take for instance, the minimum wage hike that is part of Covid relief. The Republicans are against it. (Which is stupid - it is very popular among voters). The Democrats have a couple options. They can pass the Covid relief fund with it using reconciliation, they can pass it by reducing or eliminating the filibuster, they can appear to compromise by taking it out now and just putting it in the next bill, or they can get the GOP senators to join in and pass it because it would make them look good. (that is a GOP Tightrope act - they want to look good but at the same time they can't let the Democrats and Biden look too good. )

It's almost like a serialized TV mystery show. I want to tune in again to see what happens.

 

[PTree15]

Yes but almost all the members here are democrats, we should have a place for non-democrats.

I'm an independent, though I do lean left.

 

[1956]

This is why discussion about this is so difficult for me...I can’t compare DT to any other President. It goes beyond parties and policy issues. It has to do with moral character.

At the risk of sounding disrespectful, which I’m honestly not trying to do, he just isn’t a decent human being. You can’t do and say the things that he says and does and think he is ok to lead a country. I find him to be extremely self serving and not doing anything because he cares about the country and the people.

And I am not referring to anything in his personal life. I am referring to what I’ve witnessed in just the four years that he was President.

Yes! You have stated this So well...
Since trump lost the election he has shown that he doesn’t care about the country, especially after the insurrection - still claiming that he won... he wants the country divided that is the Only way that he can have power...
He has been stoking the fires of racism for years now - the racism was there before him - he has simply legitimatised it...
Now the question is how can Biden and Harris start to heal the country? And how to open the hearts of people who can not accept people just because of their skin colour? Not trying to say that all of the problems in the USA are race related, however, trump certainly has made those problems much worse...

 

[Lou]

Yes! You have stated this So well...
Since trump lost the election he has shown that he doesn’t care about the country, especially after the insurrection - still claiming that he won... he wants the country divided that is the Only way that he can have power...
He has been stoking the fires of racism for years now - the racism was there before him - he has simply legitimatised it...
Now the question is how can Biden and Harris start to heal the country? And how to open the hearts of people who can not accept people just because of their skin colour? Not trying to say that all of the problems in the USA are race related, however, trump certainly has made those problems much worse...

Of course it was never JUST Trump.
You've got the 70 million Americans who voted for Trump.
and then there is the 30 million or so Republicans who think the Trump won the election.
Then there are the Republican US Senators that have been in the drivers seat since 2002
And Fox News. And all the other ultra conservative news agencies.

We (Liberal, non-racist, peace-loving, and sane voters) may have gotten rid of Trump, and a few senators. But what can we do about all the rest.?

Here is hoping that the Democrats success over the next two years leads to more positive change and less ultra conservative push back.

 

[anarchist100]

Of course it was never JUST Trump.
You've got the 70 million Americans who voted for Trump.
and then there is the 30 million or so Republicans who think the Trump won the election.
Then there are the Republican US Senators that have been in the drivers seat since 2002
And Fox News. And all the other ultra conservative news agencies.

We (Liberal, non-racist, peace-loving, and sane voters) may have gotten rid of Trump, and a few senators. But what can we do about all the rest.?

Here is hoping that the Democrats success over the next two years leads to more positive change and less ultra conservative push back.

If liberals where peace loving, you would not support Obama!
Leaked military documents expose the inner workings of Obama’s drone wars (theintercept.com)

 

[Lou]

If liberals where peace loving, you would not support Obama!

Ok. strike "peace-loving" In fact, strike all the adjectives.
We, the people who are happy Biden is the President and not Trump.....

 

[silva]

Maybe. It would be close. And they are hard to compare. But saying one is better than the other is sort of saying something like forest fires are better natural disasters than hurricanes.
Bush the 2nd started two wars that are still not over. About 5000 American servicemen were killed in both wars. Although if you start counting all the people who died because of the wars the number is probably in the hundreds of thousands.

Trump didn't start Covid, but he didn't help control it. You could take the number of deaths as a percent of population of any other country and compare the number of deaths in America. I think I could put some of those deaths on Trump's doorstep. Probably in the hundred of thousands, too.

I'd say the real devil is in the details

 

[Lou]

I'd say the real devil is in the details

Not just that. I think you would need some kind of formula, chart or scale. Not just popularity polls.

 

[Sax]

Of course it was never JUST Trump.
You've got the 70 million Americans who voted for Trump.
and then there is the 30 million or so Republicans who think the Trump won the election.
Then there are the Republican US Senators that have been in the drivers seat since 2002
And Fox News. And all the other ultra conservative news agencies.

We (Liberal, non-racist, peace-loving, and sane voters) may have gotten rid of Trump, and a few senators. But what can we do about all the rest.?

Here is hoping that the Democrats success over the next two years leads to more positive change and less ultra conservative push back.

Democracy reform is the biggest issue facing the country IMO. We need to get rid of Citizens United, eliminate voting restrictions and gerrymandering, auto-enroll voters when they turn 18, and make mail-in voting the norm. But the Democrats will have to nut up and nuke the filibuster to make it happen.

Republicans will howl about phony concerns like voter fraud when the real reason they oppose all that is they know the majority disagrees with them on pretty much everything. Democracy has become an existential threat to them which is why they embrace voting restrictions and authoritarianism.

A lot of people are pointing out how spineless Republicans are being right now, standing by Trump after an assault on our system of government out of fear of political blowback. But the Dems would be even more cowardly if they fail to reinforce our democracy, when it so badly needs it, out of some naive hope that Republicans will reciprocate attempts at unity and respect for norms rather than ram through far-right judges and voting restrictions as soon as they're back in power.

 

[beancounter]

I'm interest in how historians will rank Trump. They aren't always predicable. For example, they rated Obama somewhere in the middle of the pack.

Trump has the dishonorable distinction of being the only president in U.S. history to foment an insurrection against his own country. I would expect that to put him at the bottom, but you never know.

 

[KLS52]

Are there Republicans here who are willing to say if they still support Trump? I’m curious about that and knowing their reasons why.
Full disclosure...As a Republican I have never supported him.

 

[Lou]

I'm interest in how historians will rank Trump. They aren't always predicable. For example, they rated Obama somewhere in the middle of the pack.

Trump has the dishonorable distinction of being the only president in U.S. history to foment an insurrection against his own country. I would expect that to put him at the bottom, but you never know.

I was curious about that too this morning. Wikipedia has put together a list of surveys of Academic Historians.
Obama rated in the top third by all of the historians who completed an assessment. Trump was in last place or third to last in the surveys that were completed.

After looking it over, I thought Obama's grades were too low and GW Bush was too high. as far as Obama goes, the competition for good presidents is pretty high. same thing for Bush.

Historical rankings of presidents of the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Lou]

Are there Republicans here who are willing to say if they still support Trump? I’m curious about that and knowing their reasons why.
Full disclosure...As a Republican I have never supported him.

Of course....
Oh. You mean here. Nah. everyone here thinks for themselves. I think that is a prerequisite for vegans.

 

[1956]

I was curious about that too this morning. Wikipedia has put together a list of surveys of Academic Historians.
Obama rated in the top third by all of the historians who completed an assessment. Trump was in last place or third to last in the surveys that were completed.

After looking it over, I thought Obama's grades were too low and GW Bush was too high. as far as Obama goes, the competition for good presidents is pretty high. same thing for Bush.

Historical rankings of presidents of the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Wow! There was simply Too much in that article for me to take it all in... However, what I did see to my Amazement was that Ronald Regan was rated as Best President in several polls? What? How is that even possible? I have been out of the USA for many years now but - I was there during the Regan years, and there is No way that I can imagine even ranking him as a good President!

 

[1956]

As I was not in the USA during the Obama years and was not watching any news or reading much about his tenure I don’t feel like I know much about it... What I have heard after the fact though is that the republicans in office at the time worked Really hard to ensure that he accomplished as little as possible... This is something that I can not understand, not saying that they should have made it Easy for him, just maybe try to work Together to accomplish something? This is what I think that Biden is trying to do... The whole Unity thing...will the republicans once again try to muck it up?