Militant veganism?

[1956]

I still think that's splitting hairs. What some vegans are saying is that there is something wrong with drinking milk once we are adults. However, clearly people do like to drink milk and the whole point of plant-based milks is to allow people to do that without getting it from an animal. Pretending that when we drink plant-sourced milks we are not doing the same as folk drinking animal-sourced milk is being tricky and dodgy.


Yes, and that's my argument as well - that there is nothing morally wrong with killing an animal when we must. However, many vegans decry any killing for food whatsoever - the basis for their argument is that killing is bad. But if tnat's so, then animals being killed to protect crops must also be bad. That means we are under some kind of duty to obtain foods that don't demand that much killing. Put another way, vegans twist themselves inside out not to buy and eat meat because animals are killed, but then completely wave away animals being killed for their food. That's the hypocrisy critics love to pounce on.


What I am saying is that it's no-one else's business what I choose to do, but if I am largely guided by vegan ethics, then I can surely describe my lifestyle as "vegan" in the context of a forum such as this. It's merely meant to suggest that I endorse and support vegan ethics, which I do.

These are the sort of posts that in My view create the impression that You are a troll @Graeme M
There is No way in my opinion that You are living a Vegan lifestyle! Perhaps you endorse “some” Vegan ethics, however You are Not practicing Vegan ethics - therefore You are Not living a Vegan lifestyle! Indeed it is no one else’s business what you choose to do - however calling yourself Vegan when you are not living a Vegan lifestyle is Misleading at best and downright lying in my opinion…
Without going back to previous posts of yours - if I remember correctly you eat eggs from your friend don’t you? That in and of itself clearly shows that you are Not living a Vegan lifestyle…
As I have said previously claiming to be Vegan whilst Not being Vegan is Very confusing for mainstream society - it creates the impression that perhaps “some” Vegans eat eggs or other Non- Vegan items - which is Not the case…
If indeed you are living an “almost” Vegan lifestyle that is better than being a Carnivore - however you are Not a Vegan…Moreover I don’t quite understand Why you would choose to claim to be a Vegan when you are Not?!?

As for Vegans drinking plant based mylk - So what! There is Nothing “tricky or dodgy” to use your words - about it! Most people who are now Vegan grew up drinking dairy milk - choosing to consume an alternative to dairy milk makes Complete sense! As a Vegan I do not drink dairy milk - however,
using an alternative means that I can create “Creamy” meals without cruelty! Duh!!

Yes - being Vegan means avoiding Cruelty as much as possible - which also means Not killing Animals! Which is something that you don’t seem to understand!
As a Vegan I would most definitely prefer that there were No animal deaths involved in the creation of the veggies and grains that I consume, but I do Not have control over the agricultural practices and if there are “some” inadvertent consequences in the production of What I eat it is Minimal compared to a Carnivore or Omnivore diet…

 

[Graeme M]

As for Vegans drinking plant based mylk - So what! There is Nothing “tricky or dodgy” to use your words - about it! Most people who are now Vegan grew up drinking dairy milk - choosing to consume an alternative to dairy milk makes Complete sense! As a Vegan I do not drink dairy milk - however,
using an alternative means that I can create “Creamy” meals without cruelty! Duh!!

I think you are choosing to misunderstand. I am not complaining that people drink plant-based milk alternatives - I drink soy milk myself. But the reason I do so is to prevent cows being exploited. It's nothing to do with what I should consume as an adult. So let's make that claim clear and not make up silly stories that are shown to be false. How can we say that drinking milk as an adult is wrong/weak/being a baby etc when we ourselves like to consume milk?

if I remember correctly you eat eggs from your friend don’t you?

Yes, and that's entirely consistent with the aims and principles of veganism. However it doesn't fit a strict interpretation of veganism which says vegans don't eat animal products. To me, that's irrational, but it's also why I don't call myself A vegan. However, my choices there are absolutely consistent with vegan principles.

being Vegan means avoiding Cruelty as much as possible - which also means Not killing Animals! Which is something that you don’t seem to understand!

I do understand that which is the point I am making and you are avoiding. There are not "some” inadvertent consequences in the production of plant-sourced foods. There are huge numbers of animals deliberately killed cruelly to produce those foods, none of which is "inadvertent". And that's a weakness in vegan advocacy. Why is there no attention given to those animals when vegans are excoriating non-vegans for causing harm and cruelty and death? You might like to pretend you cannot do anything, but you can and the fact you don't is a major failure of vegan principles in practice.

 

[g0rph]

I still think that's splitting hairs. What some vegans are saying is that there is something wrong with drinking milk once we are adults. However, clearly people do like to drink milk and the whole point of plant-based milks is to allow people to do that without getting it from an animal. Pretending that when we drink plant-sourced milks we are not doing the same as folk drinking animal-sourced milk is being tricky and dodgy.

I don't agree.

Maybe I am in a minority, but once I understood the truth, then the idea of using mammal milk became ridiculous for me... I am an adult, fully weaned.
Yes, I prefer my English Breakfast tea with something in it to whiten and weaken the bitterness slightly. And of course plant milk does that.

There is a massive, real difference (as carnists love to point out...so much so it's not even allowed to be called milk, even if it satisfies the alternate dictionary definition)... One is a food, that evolution gave to mammals in order to fatten up and protect their young, and another is simply water with squeezed beans, nuts, grains in it.

Of course, we found that for the most part, plant milk could be used in much the same way.

And yes. There is something inherently wrong and unnatural about drinking milk meant for weaning when we are adults. We are naturally lactose intolerant as adults...It's the bodies way of saying "stop".
We only developed tolerance through luck and mutated genes..Sure, drinking mammal milk was useful during famines in the distant past, but we have gone way past that for the most part.

 

[1956]

I think you are choosing to misunderstand. I am not complaining that people drink plant-based milk alternatives - I drink soy milk myself. But the reason I do so is to prevent cows being exploited. It's nothing to do with what I should consume as an adult. So let's make that claim clear and not make up silly stories that are shown to be false. How can we say that drinking milk as an adult is wrong/weak/being a baby etc when we ourselves like to consume milk?

Yes, and that's entirely consistent with the aims and principles of veganism. However it doesn't fit a strict interpretation of veganism which says vegans don't eat animal products. To me, that's irrational, but it's also why I don't call myself A vegan. However, my choices there are absolutely consistent with vegan principles.



I do understand that which is the point I am making and you are avoiding. There are not "some” inadvertent consequences in the production of plant-sourced foods. There are huge numbers of animals deliberately killed cruelly to produce those foods, none of which is "inadvertent". And that's a weakness in vegan advocacy. Why is there no attention given to those animals when vegans are excoriating non-vegans for causing harm and cruelty and death? You might like to pretend you cannot do anything, but you can and the fact you don't is a major failure of vegan principles in practice.

I think you are choosing to misunderstand. I am not complaining that people drink plant-based milk alternatives - I drink soy milk myself. But the reason I do so is to prevent cows being exploited. It's nothing to do with what I should consume as an adult. So let's make that claim clear and not make up silly stories that are shown to be false. How can we say that drinking milk as an adult is wrong/weak/being a baby etc when we ourselves like to consume milk?

Yes, and that's entirely consistent with the aims and principles of veganism. However it doesn't fit a strict interpretation of veganism which says vegans don't eat animal products. To me, that's irrational, but it's also why I don't call myself A vegan. However, my choices there are absolutely consistent with vegan principles.



I do understand that which is the point I am making and you are avoiding. There are not "some” inadvertent consequences in the production of plant-sourced foods. There are huge numbers of animals deliberately killed cruelly to produce those foods, none of which is "inadvertent". And that's a weakness in vegan advocacy. Why is there no attention given to those animals when vegans are excoriating non-vegans for causing harm and cruelty and death? You might like to pretend you cannot do anything, but you can and the fact you don't is a major failure of vegan principles in practice.

@Graeme M - No, eating eggs is Not consistent with the aims and principles of Veganism!
You also continue to say that you don’t call yourself a Vegan - then Why do you continue to label yourself as living a Vegan lifestyle on this which Is a Vegan forum?
You claim that your choices are to quote you “absolutely consistent with vegan principles” But, eating eggs is Not!
It is Exactly those kinds of statements that give Me the impression that you Are a Troll…

 

[Graeme M]

But, eating eggs is Not (consistent with vegan principles)!

Vegan principles are primarily about rejecting the treatment of animals as property and not using them unfairly. So, what do vegans do to enact those principles? They withdraw demand from those systems using animals in that way. Sure, you can describe it as "vegans never use an animal product", but that's a simplification of the actual principle. It's actually an irrational claim, if it isn't based upon genuine moral principles. Why should anyone not eat an animal product? Because production of the product entails injustice and vegans want to signal that fact to the systems using the animals in that way. It's not the non-eating of the product that matters, it's the rejection of the production process. There has to be something about not eating the product that directs a genuine signal to the animal using systems, and typically that signal is economic.

Why are eggs not vegan? I suggest it is because in nearly all cases, eating an egg (a waste product) requires commercial production in which hens are owned and used unfairly. Even backyard hens are the same problem, because to do that I have to buy the hens and I am doing that so I can use their eggs, thus it's inherently unfair and there is still an economic signal to create and use hens. The problem isn't eating an egg, it is the injustice of using the animal in that way.

In the case of my friend, she is the one who is acting unethically by vegan standards. She buys the chickens and raises them and takes their eggs to feed her family, her hens, and her friends. Whether I take the eggs or not will have zero bearing on her future actions. She is a farmer, not a vegan. She isn't doing it as a commercial operation either, so my taking the eggs isn't stimulating her production. Nothing about me accepting her gift contributes to injustice to those hens, and they care exactly zero about me eating the eggs. Those eggs are vegan-friendly (I would also allow however that eating the eggs of rescue chickens is vegan-friendly too). Commercially obtained eggs are not.

 

[Graeme M]

Maybe I am in a minority, but once I understood the truth, then the idea of using mammal milk became ridiculous for me... I am an adult, fully weaned.
Yes, I prefer my English Breakfast tea with something in it to whiten and weaken the bitterness slightly. And of course plant milk does that.

So, using mammal's milk as a food to enrich your eating experience was a thing you did. Once you found out the truth of its origin, you rejected using mammal's milk, but you still wanted the enriched experience milk provided. So you sought an alternative. Do you not see the irony here? People do want the benefits and pleasures of drinking milk, even vegans, so they have developed alternatives. If drinking milk, or an alternative, is wrong because we are adults, then vegans haven't gotten that message.

 

[1956]

So, using mammal's milk as a food to enrich your eating experience was a thing you did. Once you found out the truth of its origin, you rejected using mammal's milk, but you still wanted the enriched experience milk provided. So you sought an alternative. Do you not see the irony here? People do want the benefits and pleasures of drinking milk, even vegans, so they have developed alternatives. If drinking milk, or an alternative, is wrong because we are adults, then vegans haven't gotten that message.

The drinking of milk alternatives is Not wrong! How can you Not understand that?!? Drinking dairy milk is Wrong - that is Because it is meant to help baby cows grow quickly! This is what the Vegan message is… It isn’t just about adults drinking milk - it’s that Humans are Not baby cows! Or sheeps or any other animal who’s milk might be consumed…Drinking dairy milk is also Not healthy for millions of people - which is part of why large numbers of omnivores are now drinking milk alternatives… These milk alternatives are also quite tasty… Vegan's have received the message @Graeme M it is You who hasn’t…

 

[4silva]

So, using mammal's milk as a food to enrich your eating experience was a thing you did. Once you found out the truth of its origin, you rejected using mammal's milk, but you still wanted the enriched experience milk provided. So you sought an alternative. Do you not see the irony here? People do want the benefits and pleasures of drinking milk, even vegans, so they have developed alternatives. If drinking milk, or an alternative, is wrong because we are adults, then vegans haven't gotten that message.

It actually sounds as if you're trying to be ridiculous--and why some are saying you sound like a troll, IMO.
nuts, beans, seeds have been blended with water, strained or not, and used in similair ways people use dairy milks. The fact that people who used to use dairy switch does not mean dairy is any way better or necessary.
People eat what is available, what is cheap, what they've eaten before. Do you also make the case that all the junk food need be revered because how many people consume them?
The entire point of veganism is that humans do not need to use animals as commodities. While everything that lives is food for some, in most cases humans can do better without. The main reason for using animals is profit and control.
Vegans don't avoid eggs or other animal products just because of how they're treated, they avoid them because they do not include them as their food. Many culture eat bugs, entrails, and all other kinds of things people in the US would never think to eat. It's the same reasoning
You really sound foolish to say you're lifestyle is vegan and advocate 'happy eggs'

 

[Graeme M]

It actually sounds as if you're trying to be ridiculous--and why some are saying you sound like a troll, IMO.
nuts, beans, seeds have been blended with water, strained or not, and used in similair ways people use dairy milks. The fact that people who used to use dairy switch does not mean dairy is any way better or necessary.

I'm not saying that, though. You are reacting to something I am not claiming. My original point was that some vegan advocates make dumb claims, then when they get shot down it undermines vegan messaging. Some vegan advocates post that drinking milk is wrong because we are weaned adults. Critics immediately point out that's silly because even vegans drink milk. I'm not saying anything about which kind of milk is good or necessary, I'm saying that just like everyone else, vegans like to drink milk, whether or not they are weaned adults.

Here is an example of what I'm referring to.




Here's another:

The entire point of veganism is that humans do not need to use animals as commodities.

Vegans don't avoid eggs or other animal products just because of how they're treated, they avoid them because they do not include them as their food.

OK, so vegans avoid eating animal products because animals are treated as commodities, which is what I said. I'm not sure what your point is? Vegans avoid eating eggs not because eggs are bad or merely because they are animal-sourced foods (which would be irrational), but because of how we use the animals. In the case of the eggs I accept from my friend, I'm not saying they are "happy eggs" or anything of the sort. My use of the egg carries zero meaning in terms of vegan principles because in no way does that cause the animals to be used unfairly or treated as property, which is what vegan principles reject.

 

[1956]

Your use of the eggs does have Meaning! You are actively participating in the Cruelty involved in the breeding and raising of those chickens!
Yes - your friend would be doing it whether or not you ate her eggs - However, you are Choosing to eat her eggs! That is not Vegan!
Why does it make any difference that you are not buying the eggs from a supermarket? Vegans do not support the cruelty inherent in the production of eggs!
This is Why I keep on saying that you are Not living a Vegan lifestyle!

 

[1956]

Dairy milk is for baby animals…
Milk alternatives are for humans…

 

[IndianVegan]

Dairy milk is for baby animals…
Milk alternatives are for humans…

But why do adult humans, who aren’t supposed to drink milk, need milk alternatives anyway? I think that’s the point @Graeme M is trying to make.

 

[Graeme M]

Vegans do not support the cruelty inherent in the production of eggs!
This is Why I keep on saying that you are Not living a Vegan lifestyle!

Usually, the cruelty inherent in egg production stems from the economic signal of demand. That means that when someone buys eggs from a producer, they are directly signalling to the producer to keep doing what they do. That's the real reason vegans don't buy eggs. If eating an egg has no effect on the animal, why would it be wrong to eat it? Can you explain why you think that's wrong?

You are actively participating in the Cruelty involved in the breeding and raising of those chickens!

How?

Dairy milk is for baby animals…
Milk alternatives are for humans…

Sure. But why do we have milk alternatives?

 

[Graeme M]

Here's an amusing, but not uncommon, image posted by a farming page I like to bother. I think I did OK defending the cause, by the way.

 

[g0rph]

Sure. But why do we have milk alternatives?

I think there is an inherent difference of opinion here.

We have alternatives because we have got used to something. Habits die hard and all that...
It's the reason we have fake meats too.
We grew used to a flavour or a texture and want to experience it without the abuse and harm.

I lived 50+ years non-vegan.
I am used to whitening and slightly weakening my tea. But mammal milk is for mammal babies. We, as vegans realised (many many years ago) that squeezing certain nuts, grains, beans could be a viable alternative in some circumstances.
Of course, it's wholly inadequate at the main intended purpose of mammal milk - feeding babies.

I am all for stressing this simple fact to non vegans.
And as I mentioned earlier, they are completely different things that share a name simply because the plant based substance looks similar and in some cases can be used in the same way.

 

[allindogecoin]

I am not a militant vegan. but only because I'm a bit cowardly.

I can't help but see the parallels with militant vegans and the abolitionist of the 18th and 19th century (or 17th if you are British).

All of us vegans know how cruel and awful the meat and diary industries are and we simply just boycott those industries.
But militant vegans see that as just passive resistance (or less). Their consciouses require more of them.

PETA tells us for PR purposes not to equate animal lives with human lives. Not to compare today's Animal Liberation movement with the Abolitionist Movement of the 19th and 20th centrury. And not to use the phrase Animal Holocaust or Pig Triblanka because that would be counter productive.

But looking back with a historical lens we think that people like Harriet Tubman, John Brown, Oscar Schindler, Irene Sendler are heroes.

I wonder how people in the future will look on Wayne Hsiang, Zoe Rosenberg, Alexandra Paul, etc.

BTW, while I was tying this about half a million chickens were slaughtered.

That is a good point. I am not a militant vegan but maybe it is because I am not brave enough. When you are a moderate and go along with the social norms, it feels wrong afterwards like I was not my authentic self and I have not done enough. But being militant may not be effective either, so I don't have any solutions. One way to approach it is to not change anyone's behaviour but to focus on buying vegan and if possible voting vegan and investing vegan. This may eventually lead to systemic changes.

 

[allindogecoin]

Here's an amusing, but not uncommon, image posted by a farming page I like to bother. I think I did OK defending the cause, by the way.

View attachment 35392

The answer is that the term "milk" is used to refer to eg breast milk in humans. Milk is the liquid produced by female mammals to feed their young. But language is never static and evolves and now we call eg almond milk a milk even though by that previous definition it is not. When someone says, "Milk is for babies" they are referring to the old definition, not the newer one.

 

[1956]

Usually, the cruelty inherent in egg production stems from the economic signal of demand. That means that when someone buys eggs from a producer, they are directly signalling to the producer to keep doing what they do. That's the real reason vegans don't buy eggs. If eating an egg has no effect on the animal, why would it be wrong to eat it? Can you explain why you think that's wrong?


How?



Sure. But why do we have milk alternatives?

It is Not simply the economic signal of demand that is the reason that Vegans don’t eat eggs… What the Real reason Is - is the inherent Cruelty in the breeding and raising of chickens to supply eggs for humans! Your friend might seem to you like they are treating the chickens well, but those chickens are that persons Slaves! Vegans object to the Exploitation of Animals for selfish human purposes! Therefore by eating the eggs that they give you - you are Actively participating in the Exploitation of those chickens…

As to why we have milk alternatives @g0rph gave an Excellent response…
The milk alternatives are also a Healthier option for Many people - even omnis - because Many people are Lactose intolerant… There is also the issue of the Hormones that are given to cows as well as other factors that make dairy milk Unhealthy…
Several omnis that I know actually prefer the taste of oat mylk in their coffee and drink it at home, however they won’t pay the small extra charge that many cafes charge for alternative mylks…
Personally I only buy Organic good quality oat mylk so it is probably more expensive than dairy milk, however the discount shops like Lidl and Aldi sell their own brands which are possibly cheaper than dairy milk… I haven’t done price comparisons because Quality is More important to me than price,
I save money by Not buying non essential items…

 

[1956]

But why do adult humans, who aren’t supposed to drink milk, need milk alternatives anyway? I think that’s the point @Graeme M is trying to make.

Hello @IndianVegan
There is an Excellent response to your question from @g0rph

 

[1956]

Here's an amusing, but not uncommon, image posted by a farming page I like to bother. I think I did OK defending the cause, by the way.

View attachment 35392

So @Graeme M how Did you defend the cause?