Militant veganism?

[1956]

I still think that's splitting hairs. What some vegans are saying is that there is something wrong with drinking milk once we are adults. However, clearly people do like to drink milk and the whole point of plant-based milks is to allow people to do that without getting it from an animal. Pretending that when we drink plant-sourced milks we are not doing the same as folk drinking animal-sourced milk is being tricky and dodgy.


Yes, and that's my argument as well - that there is nothing morally wrong with killing an animal when we must. However, many vegans decry any killing for food whatsoever - the basis for their argument is that killing is bad. But if tnat's so, then animals being killed to protect crops must also be bad. That means we are under some kind of duty to obtain foods that don't demand that much killing. Put another way, vegans twist themselves inside out not to buy and eat meat because animals are killed, but then completely wave away animals being killed for their food. That's the hypocrisy critics love to pounce on.


What I am saying is that it's no-one else's business what I choose to do, but if I am largely guided by vegan ethics, then I can surely describe my lifestyle as "vegan" in the context of a forum such as this. It's merely meant to suggest that I endorse and support vegan ethics, which I do.

These are the sort of posts that in My view create the impression that You are a troll @Graeme M
There is No way in my opinion that You are living a Vegan lifestyle! Perhaps you endorse “some” Vegan ethics, however You are Not practicing Vegan ethics - therefore You are Not living a Vegan lifestyle! Indeed it is no one else’s business what you choose to do - however calling yourself Vegan when you are not living a Vegan lifestyle is Misleading at best and downright lying in my opinion…
Without going back to previous posts of yours - if I remember correctly you eat eggs from your friend don’t you? That in and of itself clearly shows that you are Not living a Vegan lifestyle…
As I have said previously claiming to be Vegan whilst Not being Vegan is Very confusing for mainstream society - it creates the impression that perhaps “some” Vegans eat eggs or other Non- Vegan items - which is Not the case…
If indeed you are living an “almost” Vegan lifestyle that is better than being a Carnivore - however you are Not a Vegan…Moreover I don’t quite understand Why you would choose to claim to be a Vegan when you are Not?!?

As for Vegans drinking plant based mylk - So what! There is Nothing “tricky or dodgy” to use your words - about it! Most people who are now Vegan grew up drinking dairy milk - choosing to consume an alternative to dairy milk makes Complete sense! As a Vegan I do not drink dairy milk - however,
using an alternative means that I can create “Creamy” meals without cruelty! Duh!!

Yes - being Vegan means avoiding Cruelty as much as possible - which also means Not killing Animals! Which is something that you don’t seem to understand!
As a Vegan I would most definitely prefer that there were No animal deaths involved in the creation of the veggies and grains that I consume, but I do Not have control over the agricultural practices and if there are “some” inadvertent consequences in the production of What I eat it is Minimal compared to a Carnivore or Omnivore diet…

 

[Graeme M]

As for Vegans drinking plant based mylk - So what! There is Nothing “tricky or dodgy” to use your words - about it! Most people who are now Vegan grew up drinking dairy milk - choosing to consume an alternative to dairy milk makes Complete sense! As a Vegan I do not drink dairy milk - however,
using an alternative means that I can create “Creamy” meals without cruelty! Duh!!

I think you are choosing to misunderstand. I am not complaining that people drink plant-based milk alternatives - I drink soy milk myself. But the reason I do so is to prevent cows being exploited. It's nothing to do with what I should consume as an adult. So let's make that claim clear and not make up silly stories that are shown to be false. How can we say that drinking milk as an adult is wrong/weak/being a baby etc when we ourselves like to consume milk?

if I remember correctly you eat eggs from your friend don’t you?

Yes, and that's entirely consistent with the aims and principles of veganism. However it doesn't fit a strict interpretation of veganism which says vegans don't eat animal products. To me, that's irrational, but it's also why I don't call myself A vegan. However, my choices there are absolutely consistent with vegan principles.

being Vegan means avoiding Cruelty as much as possible - which also means Not killing Animals! Which is something that you don’t seem to understand!

I do understand that which is the point I am making and you are avoiding. There are not "some” inadvertent consequences in the production of plant-sourced foods. There are huge numbers of animals deliberately killed cruelly to produce those foods, none of which is "inadvertent". And that's a weakness in vegan advocacy. Why is there no attention given to those animals when vegans are excoriating non-vegans for causing harm and cruelty and death? You might like to pretend you cannot do anything, but you can and the fact you don't is a major failure of vegan principles in practice.

 

[g0rph]

I still think that's splitting hairs. What some vegans are saying is that there is something wrong with drinking milk once we are adults. However, clearly people do like to drink milk and the whole point of plant-based milks is to allow people to do that without getting it from an animal. Pretending that when we drink plant-sourced milks we are not doing the same as folk drinking animal-sourced milk is being tricky and dodgy.

I don't agree.

Maybe I am in a minority, but once I understood the truth, then the idea of using mammal milk became ridiculous for me... I am an adult, fully weaned.
Yes, I prefer my English Breakfast tea with something in it to whiten and weaken the bitterness slightly. And of course plant milk does that.

There is a massive, real difference (as carnists love to point out...so much so it's not even allowed to be called milk, even if it satisfies the alternate dictionary definition)... One is a food, that evolution gave to mammals in order to fatten up and protect their young, and another is simply water with squeezed beans, nuts, grains in it.

Of course, we found that for the most part, plant milk could be used in much the same way.

And yes. There is something inherently wrong and unnatural about drinking milk meant for weaning when we are adults. We are naturally lactose intolerant as adults...It's the bodies way of saying "stop".
We only developed tolerance through luck and mutated genes..Sure, drinking mammal milk was useful during famines in the distant past, but we have gone way past that for the most part.

 

[1956]

I think you are choosing to misunderstand. I am not complaining that people drink plant-based milk alternatives - I drink soy milk myself. But the reason I do so is to prevent cows being exploited. It's nothing to do with what I should consume as an adult. So let's make that claim clear and not make up silly stories that are shown to be false. How can we say that drinking milk as an adult is wrong/weak/being a baby etc when we ourselves like to consume milk?

Yes, and that's entirely consistent with the aims and principles of veganism. However it doesn't fit a strict interpretation of veganism which says vegans don't eat animal products. To me, that's irrational, but it's also why I don't call myself A vegan. However, my choices there are absolutely consistent with vegan principles.



I do understand that which is the point I am making and you are avoiding. There are not "some” inadvertent consequences in the production of plant-sourced foods. There are huge numbers of animals deliberately killed cruelly to produce those foods, none of which is "inadvertent". And that's a weakness in vegan advocacy. Why is there no attention given to those animals when vegans are excoriating non-vegans for causing harm and cruelty and death? You might like to pretend you cannot do anything, but you can and the fact you don't is a major failure of vegan principles in practice.

I think you are choosing to misunderstand. I am not complaining that people drink plant-based milk alternatives - I drink soy milk myself. But the reason I do so is to prevent cows being exploited. It's nothing to do with what I should consume as an adult. So let's make that claim clear and not make up silly stories that are shown to be false. How can we say that drinking milk as an adult is wrong/weak/being a baby etc when we ourselves like to consume milk?

Yes, and that's entirely consistent with the aims and principles of veganism. However it doesn't fit a strict interpretation of veganism which says vegans don't eat animal products. To me, that's irrational, but it's also why I don't call myself A vegan. However, my choices there are absolutely consistent with vegan principles.



I do understand that which is the point I am making and you are avoiding. There are not "some” inadvertent consequences in the production of plant-sourced foods. There are huge numbers of animals deliberately killed cruelly to produce those foods, none of which is "inadvertent". And that's a weakness in vegan advocacy. Why is there no attention given to those animals when vegans are excoriating non-vegans for causing harm and cruelty and death? You might like to pretend you cannot do anything, but you can and the fact you don't is a major failure of vegan principles in practice.

@Graeme M - No, eating eggs is Not consistent with the aims and principles of Veganism!
You also continue to say that you don’t call yourself a Vegan - then Why do you continue to label yourself as living a Vegan lifestyle on this which Is a Vegan forum?
You claim that your choices are to quote you “absolutely consistent with vegan principles” But, eating eggs is Not!
It is Exactly those kinds of statements that give Me the impression that you Are a Troll…

 

[Graeme M]

But, eating eggs is Not (consistent with vegan principles)!

Vegan principles are primarily about rejecting the treatment of animals as property and not using them unfairly. So, what do vegans do to enact those principles? They withdraw demand from those systems using animals in that way. Sure, you can describe it as "vegans never use an animal product", but that's a simplification of the actual principle. It's actually an irrational claim, if it isn't based upon genuine moral principles. Why should anyone not eat an animal product? Because production of the product entails injustice and vegans want to signal that fact to the systems using the animals in that way. It's not the non-eating of the product that matters, it's the rejection of the production process. There has to be something about not eating the product that directs a genuine signal to the animal using systems, and typically that signal is economic.

Why are eggs not vegan? I suggest it is because in nearly all cases, eating an egg (a waste product) requires commercial production in which hens are owned and used unfairly. Even backyard hens are the same problem, because to do that I have to buy the hens and I am doing that so I can use their eggs, thus it's inherently unfair and there is still an economic signal to create and use hens. The problem isn't eating an egg, it is the injustice of using the animal in that way.

In the case of my friend, she is the one who is acting unethically by vegan standards. She buys the chickens and raises them and takes their eggs to feed her family, her hens, and her friends. Whether I take the eggs or not will have zero bearing on her future actions. She is a farmer, not a vegan. She isn't doing it as a commercial operation either, so my taking the eggs isn't stimulating her production. Nothing about me accepting her gift contributes to injustice to those hens, and they care exactly zero about me eating the eggs. Those eggs are vegan-friendly (I would also allow however that eating the eggs of rescue chickens is vegan-friendly too). Commercially obtained eggs are not.

 

[Graeme M]

Maybe I am in a minority, but once I understood the truth, then the idea of using mammal milk became ridiculous for me... I am an adult, fully weaned.
Yes, I prefer my English Breakfast tea with something in it to whiten and weaken the bitterness slightly. And of course plant milk does that.

So, using mammal's milk as a food to enrich your eating experience was a thing you did. Once you found out the truth of its origin, you rejected using mammal's milk, but you still wanted the enriched experience milk provided. So you sought an alternative. Do you not see the irony here? People do want the benefits and pleasures of drinking milk, even vegans, so they have developed alternatives. If drinking milk, or an alternative, is wrong because we are adults, then vegans haven't gotten that message.

 

[1956]

So, using mammal's milk as a food to enrich your eating experience was a thing you did. Once you found out the truth of its origin, you rejected using mammal's milk, but you still wanted the enriched experience milk provided. So you sought an alternative. Do you not see the irony here? People do want the benefits and pleasures of drinking milk, even vegans, so they have developed alternatives. If drinking milk, or an alternative, is wrong because we are adults, then vegans haven't gotten that message.

The drinking of milk alternatives is Not wrong! How can you Not understand that?!? Drinking dairy milk is Wrong - that is Because it is meant to help baby cows grow quickly! This is what the Vegan message is… It isn’t just about adults drinking milk - it’s that Humans are Not baby cows! Or sheeps or any other animal who’s milk might be consumed…Drinking dairy milk is also Not healthy for millions of people - which is part of why large numbers of omnivores are now drinking milk alternatives… These milk alternatives are also quite tasty… Vegan's have received the message @Graeme M it is You who hasn’t…