US Manhunt for Christopher Dorner

You can shame those who express their discontent of a corrupt police force, but having that opinion does not make one complicit with the crimes committed. Is now not a good time to discuss what can be done to correct the situation?
 
You can shame those who express their discontent of a corrupt police force, but having that opinion does not make one complicit with the crimes committed. Is now not a good time to discuss what can be done to correct the situation?

I'm not trying to shame anyone who is discontented with a corrupt police force. I do think that anyone who paints all law enforcement officers with the same brush is bigoted in that regard, just as anyone who paints all Muslims, all doctors, all blondes, all lawyers, etc., with the same brush is bigoted with respect to the given group.

I also think that people who hold up a man who started out by coldbloodedly shooting two young people dead in their car as some sort of righteous crusader against police corruption should really examine their own thinking.

By all means have a discussion about police corruption, but don't assume that all police are corrupt, unless you care to back that up. And don't do it in the context of someone like Dorner - that makes about as much sense as talking about school bullying in the context of the guy who killed all those kids as Sandy Hook. Both he and Dorner killed other people's children to make whatever sick point they thought they were making.
 
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...I also think that people who hold up a man who started out by coldbloodedly shooting two young people dead in their car as some sort of righteous crusader against police corruption should really examine their own thinking.
Exactly. Dorner was LAPD. He is the perfect example of what is wrong with the LAPD. Just because they turned on him and motivated him to try to point the finger at them doesn't give his actions any defensibility. It's easy enough for anyone to point the finger at the LAPD and most likely find corruption wherever they decide to aim, but most people don't react to police corruption by murdering innocent people. Being a victim of injustice doesn't entitle one to instant sympathy when one decides to avenge that injustice by committing more injustice.

Dorner was obviously not an innocent, decent person who found himself morally outraged by the behavior of his fellow officers. Decent people don't avenge injustice by killing.
 
I also think that people who hold up a man who started out by coldbloodedly shooting two young people dead in their car as some sort of righteous crusader against police corruption should really examine their own thinking.

Agreed.

But it isn't a binary situation. The choice isn't between supporting the police or supporting Dorner. You can condemn Dorner for his cold blooded murder spree and condemn the police for the improper use of deadly force during the manhunt.

After all, the police also shot two innocent people in their vehicle. Sure, they didn't kill them, but it wasn't for lack of trying. 60 rounds in one vehicle is a tad excessive, and seems to indicate that the police involved did not even try to take the (misidentified) suspect(s) alive.
 
I'm not trying to shame anyone who is discontented with a corrupt police force. I do think that anyone who paints all law enforcement officers with the same brush is bigoted in that regard, just as anyone who paints all Muslims, all doctors, all blondes, all lawyers, etc., with the same brush is bigoted with respect to the given group.

I also think that people who hold up a man who started out by coldbloodedly shooting two young people dead in their car as some sort of righteous crusader against police corruption should really examine their own thinking.

By all means have a discussion about police corruption, but don't assume that all police are corrupt, unless you care to back that up. And don't do it in the context of someone like Dorner - that makes about as much sense as talking about school bullying in the context of the guy who killed all those kids as Sandy Hook. Both he and Dorner killed other people's children to make whatever sick point they thought they were making.

I never implied that all police are corrupt. My personal experiences and interactions with police have been—throughout my life—very positive. Regardless, negative experience(s) with police would not sway me to find favor with a murderer under any circumstance or scenario. An attempt by any individual here or elsewhere to propose that all police are corrupt would be laughable. There are people who generally mistrust the police altogether – but I doubt even they truly believe that all police are corrupt. It is an absolute – and it is silly.

One shouldn’t automatically assume that because some individuals express distaste for the behavior of the police in any given scenario that said individuals have taken a side. In the case of Dorner there are those who have done this – made him out to be some kind of hero – which is a foolishly warped, misguided and insensitive position. But it is wrong to attach these sentiments to everyone who is critical of the LAPD, because that simply isn’t the case.

Having multiple threads of various conversations sparked by a particular series of events is not only healthy but nearly an automatic response. When we talk about Newtown – we talk not only about the tragedy itself, but also about mental illness, gun control, school safety, etc. Actions lead to reactions – it is life. Sadly, do you believe our politicians would be actively debating gun control right now – with the vehemence that they are – had not Newtown happened? It may have been on their agenda at some point – but if you don’t believe Newtown added some fire to the cause then you aren’t paying attention.

Why dismiss all talk of police corruption in context of the Dorner case when very possibly two innocent lives or more could have been taken as the result of their frenzied attempts to capture him? They made a convincing case for their own irresponsibility, recklessness and (possible) corruption as it played out. Had they brought Dorner to justice dead or alive with the professionalism of a well-run police force – they may have avoided some of the public scrutiny. Instead – they inspired it.
 
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Agreed.

But it isn't a binary situation. The choice isn't between supporting the police or supporting Dorner. You can condemn Dorner for his cold blooded murder spree and condemn the police for the improper use of deadly force during the manhunt.

After all, the police also shot two innocent people in their vehicle. Sure, they didn't kill them, but it wasn't for lack of trying. 60 rounds in one vehicle is a tad excessive, and seems to indicate that the police involved did not even try to take the (misidentified) suspect(s) alive.

There was improper use of deadly force that first night, in the initial hours after the first two murders and discovery of his threat to kill police officers and their families.

That vehicle, being driven by the two women delivering newspapers - that happened in the pre-dawn hours of that night. It was being driven slowly down the street where one of Dorner's primary targets lived with his family, with its lights off, and then it stopped in front of the house in question. I would suspect that fact alone would cause me a great deal of consternation, if I were one of the people responsible for guarding the lives in that house. I suspect I also wouldn't want to provide Dorner with the opportunity to get past me in the dark and get at his planned victims.

All that of course does not excuse not announcing their presence and demanding that the person(s) in the vehicle get out of the vehicle and down on the ground (or whatever the proper protocol is in such a situation), if the reports that that was not done are true.

At the very least, that situation was mishandled, and should be investigated thoroughly. When I heard about it, my reaction was that it was some extremely nervous officers who were over-reactive. That of course doesn't excuse anything, and they simply may not have the presence of mind to deal with emergencies and therefore shouldn't be cops.

The number of rounds shot frankly doesn't make me question anyone's motives - once someone started shooting, it would be extremely difficult for everyone else to realize where the shots were coming from, and not unusual to think that fire was being exchanged. (That, BTW, is why I'm nervous about a bunch of people walking around with guns. I don't think most people realize how many shootings, even in the context of trained personnel such as the military and law enforcement, are the result of *friendly fire*.)

The other gunfire that night was by an officer responding to calls for assistance from the cops on scene where the newspaper delivery people were being shot at. He too was over-reactive, when he assumed he was encountering Dorner fleeing from that scene. (BTW, IMO that corroborates how much all of that was the result of confusion and fear reactions, not some plan at assassination.)

I haven't seen/read anything that I would question about police reactions after that first night, other than the one officer who was obviously upset/angry/afraid under fire on that last day.
 
The other gunfire that night was by an officer responding to calls for assistance from the cops on scene where the newspaper delivery people were being shot at. He too was over-reactive, when he assumed he was encountering Dorner fleeing from that scene. (BTW, IMO that corroborates how much all of that was the result of confusion and fear reactions, not some plan at assassination.)

I am going to assume that the cops would not open fire on non-black women if they knew they were non-black women during a manhunt for a large black man.

Since any attempt at communication should reveal that the occupants of the vehicle were women (unless the women had unusually deep voices), I must conclude that the cops decided to shoot first and ask questions later.

Which, by my definition, is assassination. YMMV.
 
Notice I said "plan" - I think that, once one person starts shooting, it makes it really hard to tell where the shots are coming from, especially in the dark.
 
I don't think it was premeditated, but I do think they were trying to kill the suspect in the truck.
 
If it had been LA teachers' relatives that had been murdered, and them and their families threatened instead of the LAPD, I wonder if the manhunt and protection for the families would have been as intense.
 
If it had been LA teachers' relatives that had been murdered, and them and their families threatened instead of the LAPD, I wonder if the manhunt and protection for the families would have been as intense.

I can remember a lot of really intense manhunts/investigations. For example, the Washington area sniper(s), the Boston Strangler, the Olympic bomber, the Oklahoma bomber(s), the Unabomber, etc. As a matter of fact, pretty much every mass, serial or spree killer, other than those who target the people society deems as expendable, such as prostitutes and the homeless.
 
This may be unpopular, but I thought he was a white guy when I first heard about this.