They had firefighters there and were waiting until the roof collapsed before they put any water on it. That is horrible! What if it wasnt Dormer? What if he had a dozen kids in there? Are they insane?
Plus they gave him time to slip on the scuba gear he had purchased, shoot a lookalike hostage, and swim away into Bear Lake.
I posted a link to a transcription of what was being said on the police scanner as it was happening. I think it shows that they were planning on starting a fire. Notice they have LA Fire ships in place at 3:04, and then a fire starts at 4:17. Why call for any fire units an hour before a fire starts, unless you knew there was going to be one? This isn't the entire transcription, you can read the whole thing here.
In spoilers due to length.
3:04pm 40K to Control - Info only - a bunch of LA deputies just showed up and inserted on that (plateau?) about 1/4 mile(I think) from the scene; not sure if they were invited. LA Fire Ship info? Copy; per 61C get all other aircraft out of the area, he'd appreciate it. LA Fire Ships inserted up the ridge about 1/2 mile from the location - multiple SWAT members. Probably headed for the ridge about 1/2 mile from the incident location.
3:05pm Team of 6 guys on the #4 side with 2 snipers.
3:06pm LA County flew 3 or 4 helicopters up here. They inserted into a field 1/2 mile north of the location; dropped off 15 SWAT guys all dressed in black. Not sure if they were invited or if there is any coordination with those guys. We need to pass that on to the powers that be.
3:27pm We still have 330 closed, but 18, towards Crestline should be open, let's keep it like that. Copy.
3:31pm 330 is still shut down; per Chief (Cuzimano?) that should be opened. Advise the units that 330 is to be opened.
4:34pm http://bearvalleyusd.org/ As of 2:10 pm today, February 12, 2013, the lockdown at BBHS, BLES and CTHS has been lifted. Buses will be running and parents can pick up their students. FVES remains on lockdown. Fallsvale Elementary School 40600 Valley of the Falls Dr. Forest Falls
4:04pm 61C 61L: Back the Bear down and then deploy the burner through the turret. He's not shooting back; he may be down. Confirm you know there is a basement in that residence. Affirmed.
4:06pm Transcribers Synopsis: Units on scene have been working to tear the house apart on the sides of the house that they have been able to secure. There is now talk of taking down the kitchen wall and it has been noted by the ground units that a blood splatter has been observed on one of the interior walls.
4:13pm Green smoke inside the house. Not SBD smoke. Diversion. Can you go to the back? He's in the 1-4 corner of the house. Push him back towards the 1-2 if you can. He deployed another smoke.
4:14pm We're going to be deploying a gas burner to the #1 side from the Bear.
4:17pm 7 burners have deployed and we have a fire.
4:17pm Fire in the front, he might come out the back
4:19pm #1 side fully engulfed; fire on the floor.
4:23pm Sound like one shot fired from inside the residence. All primary units stand by; maintain your discipline. The 1-2 corner fully engulfed.
4:31pm Status check? Code 4, on the #4 side. Do we have fire back there yet? That's affirm. That's affirm. The #2 and 4 side are fully involved. Only have #3 side left. Any propane cylinders back there that we need to be aware of? No, not that I can see from my position.
4:33pm Do you want have fire start putting water on it once the roof starts to collapse? Affirm; but we're not quite there yet. The #2-3 is still vulnerable. We'll move Fire 200 yards out. There is still alot of room on the 3-4 corner that hasn't engulfed yet.
4:35pm We still have ammo going off in the fire.
4:47pm Battalion 131 we're still not ready for you. We still have live ammo going off. Bat131 we have a firefighter that was raised in that building and he is familiar with it. The basement is 12x15.
4:52pm Fire is doing quite well. The 2-3 or the 3-4 is where that basement is located. Standing by for your call for Fire - whenever you're ready.
4:52pm Allowing residents of Mountain Home Village, Angelus Oaks and Forest Falls up the 38 at Bryant. All others are being turned around.
4:57pm You guys are my eyes back there. If you see anything catching fire that shouldn't, let me know. Otherwise let it go. Getting information that there is a propane tank at the rear of the residence near a garage. Be aware, if it goes it will be about a 50 yard debris field. Copy
6:06pm Fire Dept has been allowed in to the scene; no word yet on whether anyone was found... We need a lighting unit out here.
I would think that having fire trucks come in would be standard operating procedure whenever there's a lot of gunfire in an area with propane tanks and as especially a wooded area where a forest fire could easily start. (For example, no guarantee that a vehicle's gas tank wouldn't be hit by ammunition.)
IRL, I see fire engines at the scene of any major car accident, for example - not just for their fire fighting ability, but because they have the equipment necessary to extricate people from vehicles, foam down spilled flammable liquids, etc.
On the news, I see fire engines standing by in hostage situations and where a shooter has barricaded himself in a building, with or without hostages.
I would have thought it to be odd (and negligent) to not have firetrucks standing by in this kind of situation.
They had firefighters there and were waiting until the roof collapsed before they put any water on it. That is horrible! What if it wasnt Dormer? What if he had a dozen kids in there? Are they insane?
Plus they gave him time to slip on the scuba gear he had purchased, shoot a lookalike hostage, and swim away into Bear Lake.
The LAPD had a news conference and they said there were two different types of tear gas, one was incendiary and one wasn't. Why in the world would they even consider using the incendiary device in an extremely high risk forest fire area? What if he had been able to throw it back out the door and it set the woods on fire? The firefighters would have then had to risk their lives putting it out before it grew out of control. I lived in that area for a long time, so I know what the conditions there are like. It takes so little for everything to go up. The majority of the trees there are dead due to a beetle infestation and are nothing more than giant sticks of kindling. Over the years they've been working on removing them, but there are thousands.
To me, that just shows such poor judgement and disregard for the firefighters, as well as the people who live in the area. They were so focused on getting him at any cost, they didn't care what damage they might have caused.
If 'in on the plan' means accepting the proposed excuse of 'we never meant to burn that cabin down,' even though those cops that were present were aware that there were multiple incendiary devices deliberately shot inside with the intent to start a fire, then yes.
It only takes a few individuals to inspire a mob mentality. Considering the fact that cops themselves were the target in this scenario and one of their own had just been killed - it would be very easy to capitalize on this type of behavior in the heat of the moment.
If you have firefighters in your family, maybe you should talk to them about how they would feel about going within bullets' range to put out a fire endangering no one but the person shooting said bullets.
It's not something I would ever ask or expect or want anyone to do, and I can only imagine the outcry we'd be hearing if an order had been given that had resulted in firefighters being shot. Or maybe not - maybe firefighters are in the same category as policemen - their lives don't quite count.
I guess another question I'd ask everyone here - if one of those cops on the scene had been someone you cared about, how long would you want his or her life being at risk before you gave up on conventional tear gas (which is what was used first) before you'd feel it appropriate to use the stuff with bigger impact? How many lives is it worth to you to avoid killing a man who had already murdered a young woman and her fiance because he had a grudge against her father? I'm not even going to count the law enforcement officers he killed, because obviously they don't count.
From what I'm seeing on here and elsewhere on the internet, it appears that the lives of police officers don't quite count for many.
It's troubling.
Of course, we can get all weepy at the deaths of first responders when something like 9/11 happens. But the rest of the time, they're much like rabid dogs.
This thread is making me sad about humanity, just as sad as the posts on the other side of the line that I see about how Dorner's body should be hung from the nearest overpass.
The man went into this with the intention of dying. It's sad that he had to take others with him. He's no hero, and he's no martyr, even if some choose to try to make him so.
I think most of us can agree that killing police officers is wrong.
But I'm troubled by some of the comments made by the police during the final showdown. Sure, we are all pretty convinced of Dorner's guilt, but do we really want police being judge, jury and executioner if other alternatives are available?
I think most of us can agree that killing police officers is wrong.
But I'm troubled by some of the comments made by the police during the final showdown. Sure, we are all pretty convinced of Dorner's guilt, but do we really want police being judge, jury and executioner if other alternatives are available?
OTOH, I think that police officers are no different than any other segment of society - every profession, every group, has the good, the bad and the average/mediocre.
In any group, some react better to stress, make more informed decisions, etc., while others jump to conclusions, act on inadequate information, react based on their own personal biases, etc. I mean, we see it here, and we're not under threat and actually have plenty of time to think things through and even research before we post. And yes, the stakes are different, but my point is that cops are human just like the rest of us.
OTOH, I think that police officers are no different than any other segment of society - every profession, every group, has the good, the bad and the average/mediocre.
You get that in a lot of professions - I've seen it in doctors, lawyers, veterinarians, etc. I suspect that it may be stronger in law enforcement for two reasons - their lives are often on the line, creating a stronger sense of "brotherhood" and loyalty (the same thing is the case with soldiers), and there is a stronger sense that they're isolated from the rest of society (see the tone prevalent in this thread for evidence that this sense doesn't just come from the cops).
I think it's important to consider the circumstances, which were highly unusual. The suspect was well trained in weapons and military tactics. He had already killed an officer and wounded another earlier in the day. He was clearly not going to surrender and if he escaped, the manhunt could drag on for months. At some point I think they realized that taking him alive was not an option and made the difficult decision to take him out. I don't view it as acting as judge and executioner, but rather a matter of survival in a combat situation.
I didn't say it did. I'm saying that it's a fairly natural human inclination, to not *betray* members of your family, of your tribe. It's one of the things that made human survival possible, so it's pretty ingrained.
Alllives matter. That's kinda the point. The police are the ones that are supposed to uphold a system of justice that involves fairness. When they don't act accordingly on a regular basis - or are believed to be corrupt (as they are in this case) then they undermine public opinion and their own respectability. Thus, many people in the public do not hold them in the highest regard. Abuse of power is serious and dangerous and nobody wants to be on the wrong end of it. It is not a surprise that there is a definitive lack of sympathy when the police in question operate for decades on end in an environment where the abuse of power is so prevalent that it is considered a norm. Naturally, when someone challenges this type of behavior because they were a victim of it - no matter what their specific crime may be - the perspective of the public is going to fall on both sides.
That is what has happened here. I don't think people were cheering for innocent lives to be lost, cops or citizens - but rather they were reacting on the premise that there is likely some merit to the injustices of the individual who made the accusations.
This thread is making me sad about humanity, just as sad as the posts on the other side of the line that I see about how Dorner's body should be hung from the nearest overpass.
Humanity disappoints on a daily basis; because we aren't humane. For me personally this event has done little dampen that or make it worse. Humans suck. That is all.
The man went into this with the intention of dying. It's sad that he had to take others with him. He's no hero, and he's no martyr, even if some choose to try to make him so.
If a teacher had been fired for allegedly lying about another teacher in a disciplinary matter, and then some years later had gone on to kill the children of one of the teachers involved in the disciplinary matter, at the same time *publishing* a manifesto online in which he threatened to go on a killing spree to highlight the inequities of the tenure system, in which killing spree he threatened to target more of his former colleagues and their families, would the sentiments expressed in this thread have been the same? What if he was targeting nurses and doctors and their families because he had received what he considered to be inadequate care in a hospital? What if the children he had murdered as his first victims had been little children instead of two young adults sitting in a car?
I think that the sentiment and focus of this thread then would have been to do whatever necessary to keep such a man from killing more people, especially since he was known to be heavily armed and capable and ready to kill. And I think that implicit in that is a lower valuation of the lives of not only police officers, but of their families - remember who Dorner's first victims were.
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