Is vegan meat/dairy/eggs healthier than real?

[Lou]

Although I am sometimes guilty of getting a thread off track. You guys have gone off course, through the barrier and off the cliff.

 

[Veganite]

Although I am sometimes guilty of getting a thread off track. You guys have gone off course, through the barrier and off the cliff.

It's par for the course, my friend. Modding a thread on topic is futile, so until it actually goes off the rails and completely over the cliff, I'll just watch.

Aside from the "what you eating" type threads, most of them go off topic, eventually. If I did step in and ask people to get back on topic, do you really think it would help? I'm always open for suggestions, Lou.

I know this is off topic, but...sorry, I just can't help myself.

 

[TofuRobot]

Although I am sometimes guilty of getting a thread off track. You guys have gone off course, through the barrier and off the cliff.

Maybe all of that, but not yet quite "of the rails" lol

 

[Forest Nymph]

This is partly in reply to post 14 from Forest Nymph, but also just general comment:

People who go vegan for health and environment are vegans as far as I'm concerned as long as they do it properly and avoid all animals products then they meet the definition of vegan whatever their reasons.

But, if you have gone vegan for health/environment and are checking all ingredients, even in toiletries, then that isn't really logical. And if you are not doing all that, you are not really vegan anyway according to the majority of vegans.

I think some people do go vegan for ethical reasons and then quit. Some of these don't have firm enough ethical convictions, others haven't tried enough, others have had genuine health difficulties. Most of them return to meat eating for health or taste or convenience reasons, but (if you look at ex vegan blogs) still feel the need to come up with some story to convince themselves ethics wise.

The vast majority of people I know of who quit didn't know how to feed themselves and were following some orthorexic unsatisfying diet where they either weren't getting enough calories or variety in their diets due to paranoia about fat, salt and anything remotely processed...OR they were on a restrictive diet where they were getting enough calories, but felt psychologically deprived of "fun" foods but were so bullied by the orthorexic plant-based diet industry, they actually believed they needed eggs or fish to be healthy or feel satisfied,instead of just having some Tofurky or Field Roast.

I encountered someone yesterday on another forum that is non-vegan related, who identifies as vegan, and her daily menu was so low in calories I have no idea how she had energy to do anything. In fact she mentioned having to take B12 every day because she felt tired. Obviously that's not usually the answer, and it definitely wasn't in her case. She was eating oatmeal without nuts, seeds or vegan milk, then having kale and rice for lunch (no beans or tofu or anything), and chili by itself for dinner. No mention of any snacks, like fruit or nuts, an apparent abhorration to protein, and this individual actually tried to claim that vegan yogurt is "semi-junk food." Like seriously? Plain unsweetened cultured cashew milk is "semi-junk food"? These people are CRAZY their diets are BAD and they claim that this is "healthy" and they make up the vast majority of so-called ex-vegans. Occasionally you get someone who said they tried to live off of mock meats and frozen meals and it got to expensive, or that they felt sluggish because not enough fresh whole foods, but that's the minority. For example, all of those girls who used to follow 30 Bananas a Day or ate fruit and drank juice constantly tend to be the ones who call veganism "unhealthy" because their experience of "veganism" was nearly starving to death.

Well, I have zero problem telling these people that they're on a plant based diet and this isn't inherently "vegan." If it were, they'd try a different vegan diet instead of going back to animal products.

 

[TofuRobot]

Where do you get "Plain unsweetened cultured cashew milk" ?? I have never seen a dairy-free yogurt that*wasn't* semi-junk food, either, TBH

 

[Forest Nymph]

Where do you get "Plain unsweetened cultured cashew milk" ?? I have never seen a dairy-free yogurt that*wasn't* semi-junk food, either, TBH

And you live in southern California? You should definitely be able to find it. Forager is my favorite brand. But there's also the almond and coconut yogurts. The only one that I would consider semi-junk food would be Daiya, Daiya can be tasty -I'd honestly rather eat their pizzas than their yogurts, though - but Daiya overall is very mysterious in its lists of ingredients. Lol.

There are people who do well on very restrictive diets, they enjoy them, and have enough variety and knowledge to make interesting, nutritious meals. But there are a lot of other people who take it too far then run back to eating cheese and eggs, even meat. I've seen this over and over and over again, to the point that the obvious pattern cannot be denied.

It should also be taken into consideration that some people really enjoy food and eating, who enjoy having special junk food meals or snacks, and as long as those things are balanced with whole foods that's their personal decision. Some people would gladly leave veganism or never try it in the first place for fear all they could eat for the rest of their life was kale. Vegan products aren't the devil, they aren't that bad when compared to their counterparts, and as far as I can tell most vegans couldn't even afford to entirely live off of them.

I have seen weird incidents though where people tried to be vegan without eating vegetables. The "junk food vegan" is a real person but I don't encounter them very often. I think it's unhelpful, inaccurate, and possibly even harmful to label people who eat vegan products sometimes as "junk food" vegans.

 

[Emma JC]

@Emma JC .

I regularly kill poisonous spiders if I find them in my home. I let one live once, a poisonous but non deadly one, thinking everything would be fine. It wasn’t bothering me, just sitting on the wall. So I let it live.

It found it’s way into my bed at night and got spooked while I was sleeping and bit me.

An animal wasn’t harmed, but I was. I had a scar and lump for around a year. Now I kill those particular kind and any other deadly kind that happen to find their way in.

Am I not a vegan? By the definition you stated, I’m not. Nor would I be by that definition if I killed invading rats that could bite me and give me disease, a rabid dog I may encounter completely minding my own business, any snakes I come across ( Australia has the deadliest snakes and spiders).

"Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose."

Killing or removing a poisonous spider or snake or rat that is about to bite you is not exploitation or cruel and we are getting a long ways away from the initial post.

I reacted to the first line in the post "Just to put the real animal products in the best possible light healthwise" because it just hurt my heart to see it and so maybe my reaction was an over reaction and as @Jamie in Chile says "it can help us in discussions with meat eaters".

I apologize if it took us all down a rat hole.

Emma JC

 

[TofuRobot]

And you live in southern California? You should definitely be able to find it.

Most of what is readily available is Silk and So Delicious . ... I can look for the brand you mention at whole foods, but I'm guessing it's super expensive?

 

[Forest Nymph]

Most of what is readily available is Silk and So Delicious . ... I can look for the brand you mention at whole foods, but I'm guessing it's super expensive?

Not really super expensive considering you get a big vat of it, so it's cheaper per oz than the individual cups, I'm fairly certain. It also depends on where you buy it. Kite Hill is also usually readily available, but I don't know where you shop.

 

[Lou]

You can make yogurt at home. I used to. Hey, my new InstantPot has a yogurt mode. I should do it again.

And thanks to Amazon and Tetrapaks you can buy almost any kind of plant milk online. Sometimes you have to buy six packs but still.... less shopping trips.

 

[NapaValleyVegan]

To be clear ... vegan is not about being healthy and they don't purport it to be.

Vegan is about the animals, full stop.

There are many vegans who also eat a whole food plant based diet some with minimal added salt, oils and sugars.

So arguing whether or not a mock meat is healthier than an animal product is spurious in a vegan context.

Emma JC

I‘m in agreement with you Emma. The definition of veganism is to end the suffering & exploitation of animals whenever is possible. Since most of us are fortunate enough to have access to good, healthy food changing our diet is the easiest & usually the first step in becoming vegan. Nowhere does the definition mention our health! Now if you stick to a Whole Foods, plant based diet, organic...then, yes, you will probably be far healthier. And by not ingesting animals & their fluids you also don’t eat cholesterol. But trying to compare processed vegan meat, eggs & dairy to the real thing isn’t really the point of being vegan

 

[TofuRobot]

^ I also do not believe it is THE point, but it *is* a valuable selling point that it does happen to be the heathier choice for all involved in the equation.