Is a fish diet more ethical than plant based diet?

Strugglepuss

Newcomer
Joined
Jul 24, 2021
Reaction score
19
Age
64
Location
Michigan
Lifestyle
  1. Vegan newbie
Funnily enough, I do.
A lot of people are nicer than me :) I will avoid stepping on critters if I happen to notice them, but only up to a point. I consider myself to be a natural beast, no different than an ape in the jungle (though hopefully slightly more intellectually evolved). If I eat a plant with a bug on it, and don't notice it, so be it. I recently fixed up a basement in an old house I own that had been neglected for years. There had to be thousands if not hundreds of thousands of spiders down there. If I had taken the time to save them before I started cleaning, renovating, and painting, I would have spent a month doing so and would still be at it. In fact, that process would never end. Even after doing a lot of painting, I still see spiders everywhere as I continue to fix things. I read somewhere that there are so many spiders that you are almost always within a couple of feet of one. I'm a biologist. There is a bug for every niche on the planet, way more than most of us think. Our senses limit our perception, so we don't give much thought about what we can't see - all the life forms that are all around us at every moment, from microbes to mites to tiny spiders. If we could see through microscopic eyes and only saw molecules, we'd realize that we are so infused with life in and all around us that there's really no separation between us, and that we are barely, if at all, an individual entity. So if I'm going to worry about the critters around me, where do I draw that line? Technically, to keep every living thing safe, I'd have to stay still and never move, have someone spoon feed me carefully with healthy foods, making sure not to eat anything that was harmful to the bacteria in my gut.
 
D

digitarian

Guest
I think this post really doesn't take into account all the ways vegan food can be raised without harming insects. If you take the most ethical fish-based diet with the most ethical vegan diet - the vegan diet wins. You can have indoor, vertical farms and bioreactors - which really avoid insects - and plant pest-resistant crops (lavender is one, but there's likely staple crops that're pest resistant - I believe peas are. At the very least you can use pest-resistant crops as a 'decoy' against your vulnerable ones). Maybe killilng salmon that're just sitting around waiting to die will take them out of their misery - but there's also a future where we can 3d print plant cells and avoid both worries of insects and harming plants. If you eat plants that avoid insects - then you can focus your time on how to improve the lives of animals in the wild - without killing them. Maybe even provide them plant food or nourish yourself to go up to said fish and spend your energy to entertain them to help them feel better. You don't even have to worry about eating these fish - as they tend to be the food source of other animals - it's for them to help these animals out - that you don't have to take it upon yourself. If you really care - try to help in the fight to protect such predators, like bears - from hunting, etc. and let them do the job of eating for you. In a perfect world, nature has no waste and takes care of itself.
 

Stardust1986

Forum Devotee
Joined
May 4, 2022
Reaction score
87
Age
36
Location
Dayton
Lifestyle
  1. Vegan newbie
I’m sorry for writing so much. This topic is important to me so I couldn’t shorten it. Please read until the end, i bet you won’t regret it at all!
in the last thread, I figured out that I was not clear enough, so I’m posting this new thread because I really want to reach the truth. This was the last thread: EU - Consuming fish is more ethical than eating plants

What I said was:

People didn’t get it right in that thread, so I want to make this clear now: I hate animal abuse just as much as everybody else in this forum does, and I do not tolerate excuses. This is not an excuse, but a genuine ethical concern that has harmed my animal right activism(that’s right, I am a new activist). My ideal form of activism has been driven by my absolute hatred for the exploiting industries, and by my certainty that it is wrong, in every way , shape and form.
And another thing- I am not talking about a regular carnivorous diet(animal flesh, cheese, milk, honey and eggs), I am talking about a diet that includes only vegans stuff, and marine animals that we don’t feed with crop- Because vegan food production harms mammals, rodents and insects(and it’s not a troll, I truly care about insects because they obviously can feel). Keep in mind I’m not talking about cows for example or any other animals that we do feed with crops. I’m talking about marine animals that we just drag out of the ocean and kill them on the spot, without giving them any food.
And if you still think I should just ignore my ethical concern, keep in mind that the process of ignoring such ethical concerns- is the very reason why people do bad things and also don’t go vegan, therefore I refuse just letting it go.


the single legit claim that was brought up last thread was: fishing causes dropping garbage in the sea, and also sea pollution which also harms third side animals. However- I’m not sure that fishing harms animals less than vegan food production. But for now, It actually makes more sense to me that the crop process harms animals the most(because seriously- ants and insects must be huge in number where they grow the vegan stuff). This is the only argument I know of, that veganism might not completely destroy that easily, or not at all. It genuinely freaks me out because I used to think that veganism can destroy any single claim for animal eating, in terms of pure ethics, and pure objectivism.

the other claim that was brought up was that an avarage fish we kill also eats let’s say 5 times his weight. This claim is genuine but irrelevant, since unlike factory farmed animals, we do not make fish pregnant(don’t make them give births). Therefore, the quantity of the animals the fish eat is not increased by our consumption, unlike cows for example(that we rape to give birth).

I want to clarify one more thing: don’t get me wrong- I still think veganism is overall better that the avarage carnivorous diet, no matter if eating fish is less harmful, because the avarage carnivorous diet is really also includes a lot of factory farmed animals, and also factory farmed fish.

a huge thanks to the people who read it so far. It’s really important to me. So if you got any useful piece of information about it, please let me know. I just wanna know for sure what is harmful the most- non factory farmed fish or vegan food. And please don’t bring up the assumption that indirect/unintentional killing is less bad than intentional, because I’m an educated vegan- I’m pretty aware about the consequences of my food choices. I am not ready to use the “unintentional assumption” as an excuse to not care about the objective suffering count of my choices.
 

Stardust1986

Forum Devotee
Joined
May 4, 2022
Reaction score
87
Age
36
Location
Dayton
Lifestyle
  1. Vegan newbie
I personally wouldn't find eating honey inhumane either, but honeybees are threatened, so we have to advocate their survival by not taking their food. Responsible fishing isnt bad, in my opinion, but so many people are practicing unsubtainable fishing methods, so much that fish are in danger. If everyone just does their best to avoid them as food, their population can recover
 

FredVegrox

Forum Legend
Joined
Nov 9, 2018
Reaction score
316
Location
California
Lifestyle
  1. Vegan
Regardless of what you think you know about it honeybees are being controlled and a number of them killed off, while honey the workerbees spend much of their lives getting nectar for, for feeding the young of their hives, is stolen from them, for the demand from people, that pays for that continuing, it is not appropriate treatment to bees. I care about sustainability in living, a whole lot, really. Yet animal treatment remains important, and proper treatment for them is essential in vegan values.
 
  • Like
Reactions: KLS52 and Brian W