"God gave us animals to eat,so it's ok"?

[Graeme M]

Thanks for this, @silva, I had not seen or heard of this film before now. So this is a Q&A with the producers... I hope to watch it later. It looks like the actual doco is available here in March so I will go see it. I am curious about their angle. I have just published my blog post about the fundamental similarities between scriptural attitudes to animals and veganism. My argument is that fundamentally, God expects us to look after other animals consistently with His nature. He did not create animals to be simply objects for exploitation (ie a mere means) but to have value and dignity in and of themselves because they are part of His Creation (ie they are ends in themselves). Likewise, veganism aims to recognise the inherent value and dignity of other animals as sentient beings who are ends in themselves, not mere means. Caveat: I am an atheist so I don't quite grasp the whole Christian worldview!

Why Veganism Reflects Christian Ideals | Just Us Too

 

[VeganRachel]

Thank you for sharing, I had not hear of this before. It will be an eye-opener when it is shown.
The Kickstarter must be closed for this film, I attempted to look it up and donate.

 

[VeganRachel]

Here are a couple of interesting things relevant to this thread. The first is that while discussing this with a Christian friend the other day, I came to wonder whether veganism and Christian ideals are really quite similar when it comes to how animals should be treated. Not exactly the same but so close that in many ways, it seems Christians should really be much more sympathetic to veganism.

The main barrier is that Christians seem to think that veganism argues in favour of animals being equal to humans, whereas for Christians people were created separately and in the image of God. This "image of God" notion is actually a cornerstone of their faith. Also, God gave people dominion over the animals, so many Christians think that means we are free to use animals however we like. I'd suggest this is not consistent either with scripture or God's nature.

I spent a little time researching the use of the Hebrew word "radah" which appears in Genesis as the term for "dominion". Long story short, there is a very good case for believing that radah in this context means responsible management of nature consistently with God's nature. Given God's essential nature is to be just and fair, we seem to be responsible for being fair to other animals in whom there exists an inherent value and dignity, given they are the results of God's good works and are pleasing to Him. Now, veganism is a secular notion about encouraging justice in the ways people deal with other animals. At its simplest, veganism guides us to be fair to other animals because as sentient beings they have inherent value and dignity.

Overall, I want to suggest that Christians who honour their faith and their commitment to Jesus should want to treat animals very similarly to how vegans might, with the one exception that God permits us to use animals for food. In other words, both veganism and Christianity should bring one close to the same practices. I am writing a short blog post about this that I will share when published.

Now, quite oddly and coincidentally, something turned up on my FB feed today that I have never before heard of. This is odd because it has apparently been in the works for several years. The makers of Cowspiracy and Seaspiracy have produced Christspiracy. It will be released next month. Intriguing!

“Didn’t Jesus Eat Fish?” This New Vegan Documentary Explores the Relationship Between Religion and Animals | VegNews

Of course they should be more open to veganism, but that would mean they would ultimately have to change their beliefs and diets.
Thank you for sharing about CHRISTSPIRACY, i had not heard of it before. I look forward to other info. about your research. cheers.

 

[Col]

There is no need to change from being Christian in order to be vegan, for every cruel verse in the Bible I could quote two verses of compassion for all life including animals - try me! . Christian belief does not have cruelty at its heart and as stories in the Bible often ask it is good to return to the ideal of the vegan garden of Eden of Adam and Eve and 6 chapters of descendants,
As Easter is approaching soon now I would like to share my flyer I will be distributing it to my local churches

 

[Brian W]

There is no need to change from being Christian in order to be vegan, for every cruel verse in the Bible I could quote two verses of compassion for all life including animals - try me! . Christian belief does not have cruelty at its heart and as stories in the Bible often ask it is good to return to the ideal of the vegan garden of Eden of Adam and Eve and 6 chapters of descendants,
As Easter is approaching soon now I would like to share my flyer I will be distributing it to my local churches

Awesome idea!

 

[VeganRachel]

Thanks for this, @silva, I had not seen or heard of this film before now. So this is a Q&A with the producers... I hope to watch it later. It looks like the actual doco is available here in March so I will go see it. I am curious about their angle. I have just published my blog post about the fundamental similarities between scriptural attitudes to animals and veganism. My argument is that fundamentally, God expects us to look after other animals consistently with His nature. He did not create animals to be simply objects for exploitation (ie a mere means) but to have value and dignity in and of themselves because they are part of His Creation (ie they are ends in themselves). Likewise, veganism aims to recognise the inherent value and dignity of other animals as sentient beings who are ends in themselves, not mere means. Caveat: I am an atheist so I don't quite grasp the whole Christian worldview!

Why Veganism Reflects Christian Ideals | Just Us Too

Thank you Graeme, I read your blog and it is wonderful...

 

[Graeme M]

There is no need to change from being Christian in order to be vegan, for every cruel verse in the Bible I could quote two verses of compassion for all life including animals - try me!

Yes, that was partly the point of my blog post. Christians don't need to be vegan because the fundamental tenets of Christianity can guide one to the same attitudes and behaviours.

 

[Col]

So many atrocities have been historically carried out in the name of Christianity I would not suggest that Christians are always good to animals. Christian denominations also differ in their own interpretations but biblically Genesis starts vegan, as events and laws come and go in the Bible the idea that Eden is an idyll and that paradise is compassionate and not harmful to life in its spirit are important tenets of the faith, meaning Christians can choose to be vegan and remain Christian.

 

[Brian W]

Treating food as an spiritual doctrine is considered "a doctrine of demons." That means we have no right to say you cannot be a Christian unless you are vegan but it also means we have no right to say you cannot be a Christian if you are vegan. The apostle Paul even said that he would rather never again eat meat than act without love towards vegetarian Christians. Compassion, of course, is a Christian doctrine and there is nothing wrong with extending that to animals.

 

[Col]

Treating food as an spiritual doctrine is considered "a doctrine of demons." That means we have no right to say you cannot be a Christian unless you are vegan but it also means we have no right to say you cannot be a Christian if you are vegan. The apostle Paul even said that he would rather never again eat meat than act without love towards vegetarian Christians. Compassion, of course, is a Christian doctrine and there is nothing wrong with extending that to animals.

Thankyou for that careful insight that seems consistent with Pauline Christianity - his words show there was a vegetarian or vegan Christian group at that time as well in existence.
There remains a disconnect within the (majority) non-vegan Christianity between caring for eternal souls and killing sentient life on earth for all sorts of products, making it not only not wrong, but a good thing in itself and for life on earth for more Christians to become vegan.

 

[Brian W]

a good thing in itself and for life on earth for more Christians to become vegan.

They will have to after Christ's return!

 

[peacefulveglady]

Thank you for sharing, I had not hear of this before. It will be an eye-opener when it is shown.
The Kickstarter must be closed for this film, I attempted to look it up and donate.

This movie is total
blasphemous
adjective

US

/ˈblæs·fə·məs/

Add to word list
(of speech or writing) showing lack of respect to God or to a religion:

It lies about how Jesus came to earth. It tells people that there are books from the Bible that are missing so Christians can promote animal cruelty.
The Bible is real clear how you cannot add and take from the Bible.

Revelation 22:18-19

Amplified Bible

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18 I testify and warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book [its predictions, consolations, and admonitions]: if anyone adds [anything] to them, God will add to him the plagues (afflictions, calamities) which are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from or distorts the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away [from that one] his share from the tree of life and from the holy city (new Jerusalem), which are written in this book.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

Amplified Bible

​

16 All Scripture is God-breathed [given by divine inspiration] and is profitable for instruction, for conviction [of sin], for correction [of error and restoration to obedience], for training in righteousness [learning to live in conformity to God’s will, both publicly and privately—behaving honorably with personal integrity and moral courage]; 17 so that the [a]man of God may be complete and proficient, outfitted and thoroughly equipped for every good work.


I will not be seeing this movie as its telling lies about My Savior and Bible.

 

[Col]

I have seen the film I think it is amazing,

I think you refer to some texts that are not proved to be genuine which are attributed to the Essene movement
but these are actually not quoted in the film and the suggestion that the Bible is re-compiled is not mentioned.
You may be aware that in the film the existence of the movement is mentioned and the existence of James the Just, Jesus' brother as well,
which is interesting historically and theologically.

Interpeting the Bible is something that all Christians do and are allowed to do in different ways within Christianity,
that is something this film could be said to also be doing.
One of the main texts discussed is Jesus overthrowing the sellers of doves in the Temple [Matthew 21:12-13].
I was looking forward to discussing the issues in it
Texts of other religions are mentioned, these are not Biblical but also not blasphemous to discuss.

I would recommend it to anyone who is interested in the ethics of animals and religion.

I have a link for free tickets for US based people who otherwise would find it too expensive

Christspiracy

 

[peacefulveglady]

I have seen the film I think it is amazing,

I think you refer to some texts that are not proved to be genuine which are attributed to the Essene movement
but these are actually not quoted in the film and the suggestion that the Bible is re-compiled is not mentioned.
You may be aware that in the film the existence of the movement is mentioned and the existence of James the Just, Jesus' brother as well,
which is interesting historically and theologically.

Interpeting the Bible is something that all Christians do and are allowed to do in different ways within Christianity,
that is something this film could be said to also be doing.
One of the main texts discussed is Jesus overthrowing the sellers of doves in the Temple [Matthew 21:12-13].
I was looking forward to discussing the issues in it
Texts of other religions are mentioned, these are not Biblical but also not blasphemous to discuss.

I would recommend it to anyone who is interested in the ethics of animals and religion.

I have a link for free tickets for US based people who otherwise would find it too expensive

Christspiracy

Jesus drove the money changers out of the Temple because they were selling items and using it as a storefront. They also were gambling in the Temple in a wrong way.

12 Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13 “It is written,” he said to them, “‘My house will be called a house of prayer, but you are making it a den of robbers.’”

Matt 21:12-13 (NIV)​

In our verses for today we see the Lord Jesus exercising His authority in the temple of God with a moral and righteous indignation. Abuses must be purged before righteousness can be established – here, the Light shone brightly on the darkness at hand. I am reminded of Jesus’ Words to Saul turned Paul on the road to Damascus found in Acts. It is Jesus’ desire to turn us from darkness to light:
15 “Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,' the Lord replied. 16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you. 17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’” Acts 26:15-18 (NIV)
As Jesus entered the courtyard area surrounding the temple He immediately directed His attention to those who had corrupted the character of His Father’s house from a place of prayer to becoming a place of commercialism and wanton gain. He drove out those who were buying and selling and changing money - overturning both the tables and the benches. These practices may have perhaps started innocently enough to aid pilgrims who lived in faraway places by providing them their sacrifices. They could more easily bring money with them than their beast yet it quickly turned into a counterfeit godliness filled with worldly gain. The chief priests were now admitting this market into the temple area for filthy lucre. Perhaps it slipped their minds that surely the Lord was in this place. Perhaps they thought they were getting away with something under the guise of godliness. Paul writes in1Timothy of such as these who with corrupt minds think godliness is a means to financial gain:
3 If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4 he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5 and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain. 1 Tim 6:3-5 (NIV)
“Many were making their living from the temple and the sacrifices purchased there. They insisted that in the temple the people could not use money that had been circulating in society, but had to change their money into temple money first, for a fee, and then use the temple money to purchase animals for sacrifice, at inflated prices.” Bible Knowledge Commentary

 

[Brian W]

18 I testify and warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book [its predictions, consolations, and admonitions]: if anyone adds [anything] to them, God will add to him the plagues (afflictions, calamities) which are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from or distorts the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away [from that one] his share from the tree of life and from the holy city (new Jerusalem), which are written in this book.

John wrote this only about the book of Revelation. The Bible is a collection of writings that had not been compiled at the time John wrote this.

 

[Brian W]

16 All Scripture is God-breathed [given by divine inspiration]

The original Greek means only "Inspired by." If I wrote a piece of music that I said was inspired by Beethoven, would that mean that Beethoven was personally telling me what to write? It seems unlikely to me that Paul would consider his own letters (the bulk of the New Testament) as scripture. He was probably referring to the Jewish scriptures, i.e.the Old Testament, as they were the only scriptures that were compiled at the time.

 

[Brian W]

It lies about how Jesus came to earth. It tells people that there are books from the Bible that are missing

There are. They are collectively referred to as The Apocrypha. One canonical book, Jude, quotes from the Apocrypha meaning there is no reason to consider it any less important than the books that the "Church" decided were not inspired.

 

[peacefulveglady]

The Books of the Bible we have is all God wants us to have.

 

[peacefulveglady]

John wrote this only about the book of Revelation. The Bible is a collection of writings that had not been compiled at the time John wrote this.

I did not post that to get a preaching on how The Bible was put together.
What this movie promoted was to pick on the Bible and Jesus and twists things up and lie about the truth.
True Christians would not be ignorant to believe all these things about Jesus.

 

[peacefulveglady]

You think humans are attacking God? I disagree. No one is attacking God. My belief is that God created the ANIMALS before humans were created.
The animals were designed to be our companions, and we their caretakers, protectors, friends and stewards. NOT their betrayers and slaughterers of.
God loves all of the creatures made. There was no animal cruelty then? to kill an animal, it was held down while some human used a sharp knife to
slit its' throat. All of this while it cried out in pain aas it struggled to get free. It took several minutes for the animal to slowly bleed out and die against its' will to live. That is cruelty and violence 2000 years ago!. If you believe we were 'given' animals to kill than thats' your opinion.

You really need to read upon Noah and the great flood. Why can’t vegans put it in your activist minds that God oked one time to eat animals as the great flood happened they had to wait til things to grow a full year.

This is about the Temple that Jesus drove out of money changers.
The vendors, as they are called , or money changers were cheating people and taking advantage of them. They weren't just selling animals for temple sacrifice, they were cheating their customers. Jesus said they had turned the Temple into a den of thieves, when it should have been a House of Prayer.