Dazed and Confused...

[Sunny]

This is difficult to talk about - I have been anxious and confused on and off for some time and trying to really put my finger on the problem so that I can hopefully put it to rest if you know what I mean. I have been vegan for about 5-6 years, for the animals.

When I first became vegan I didn't worry about nutrition. I never really gave it thought but upon looking into it further I discovered that I needed to take a B12 supplement. I think that led me to look further into other supplements I might need. The Vegan society supplement is made up of numerous vitamins and minerals so I began to wonder about the quality and efficacy of a diet that required me to take supplements.
The deeper I delved the more I considered that many of these supplements (B12 aside) were perhaps for people who ate crisps for their meals (chips for US peeps) and would not be needed by those who ate a varied and healthy vegan diet. I hoped that was the case and I am an advocate of getting my vitamins and minerals through food sources as much as possible. But even saying "as much as possible" causes me concern because any way of eating has to provide all we need without supplementing (again, aside from B12) right? Yet every time I turn around I am reading something about a nutrient we may be missing if we are vegan.
I know Big Ag and the money making machine will have us eating the animals and their products so there is a lot of propaganda out there to support that but I do feel anxiety and worry that I'm not eating correctly to meet my needs when I read things, for example, about non heme iron not being as well absorbed by the body. So that I didn't have to type lots of info, I have copied and pasted the following statements from a website:

• "Vitamin A – It is approximately 20 times more bioavailableanimal-based food than plant-based foods.
  
  • In fact, plant foods don’t actually have vitamin A. They have carotenoids which have to be converted to Vitamin A.
• Vitamin B – Animal-based foods are the best source of B Vitamins. Especially B12.
• Vitamin C – Plant-based foods are a better source of vitamin C. Does it matter? (Hint: Yes and No.)
• Vitamin D – Plants don’t contain Vitamin D3 (the form our body needs). Sun and meat is our answer here.
  
  • Plants have Vitamin D2, and our body can convert some D2 to D3
  • Fungi are also a source of vitamin D
• Vitamin E – Plant-based foods have higher concentrations of vitamin E. And for good reason. A plant-based diet requires additional protection from oxidation of PUFA which Vitamin E helps provide through its antioxidant properties. It’s still found in adequate supply in meat.
• Vitamin K – Both plant and animal foods have the K1 version; however, plants don’t have K2 which is vital for human life.
  
  • K2 also has numerous forms. The essential kind we need is MK-4, which is only in animal food. We can convert some K1 to MK-4 but generally not enough to meet our needs.
    
    While all essential minerals can be found in both plant and animal foods, there is a stark difference in absorption of these micronutrients. Animal-based nutrients have higher bioavailability as well as less hindrance from antinutrients that come “pre-packaged” with plant-based food.
    
  • Plant-based foods aren’t just harder to absorb, but they tend to have smaller quantities of the “big hitters.”
    
    For example, many plant-based foods are lower in iodine and zinc compared to animal foods.
    
    Most plant-based foods are incomplete proteins. This means various plant-based foods have to be combined to get all the amino acids needed. Exacerbating the situation, these proteins are mostly found in plant seeds which often contain the highest concentrations of antinutrients and phytochemicals that can impair human health.
• Plant-based foods do not supply dietary cholesterol. Only animal-based foods do. Evidence suggest this has significant health implications. Especially for the brain that hogs 25% of all bodily cholesterol. "
  
  
  So I read this kind of thing and I become very concerned. I end up looking into how much calcium is in Kale and try to work out how much I would need to consume to meet my daily requirements and I often end up doing this for lots of things and end up thinking I will not be able to consume all that in one day or I won't have enough calcium or folate etc so I must be deficient.
  I had a phone appt with a GP the other day. He was one I have not spoken to before. When I told him I was vegan he said that it was a very high probability that no matter how well, varied and healthy I eat, I would be deficient in many nutrients. I was shocked by his words. Since then my worry has increased and not only for my health but the implications if that were correct. Someone else on this site shared a blog post in which the author said my feelings exactly and that was if I can not get what I need from my diet to be healthy then that means that to harm animals is not morally wrong and my whole way of life , avoiding harming them, is not sustainable or correct.
  Sometimes I wonder if all this worry is just because it is so different from the way of life I was raised with, the world was raised with really. Before i was vegan I didn't worry about my vitamins and nutrients but was that because I didn't need to, as they were more abundant and complete or was it just that a confidence was there because it is what we knew so well?
  
  Sorry for the long post.

 

[silva]

This is difficult to talk about - I have been anxious and confused on and off for some time and trying to really put my finger on the problem so that I can hopefully put it to rest if you know what I mean. I have been vegan for about 5-6 years, for the animals.

When I first became vegan I didn't worry about nutrition. I never really gave it thought but upon looking into it further I discovered that I needed to take a B12 supplement. I think that led me to look further into other supplements I might need. The Vegan society supplement is made up of numerous vitamins and minerals so I began to wonder about the quality and efficacy of a diet that required me to take supplements.
The deeper I delved the more I considered that many of these supplements (B12 aside) were perhaps for people who ate crisps for their meals (chips for US peeps) and would not be needed by those who ate a varied and healthy vegan diet. I hoped that was the case and I am an advocate of getting my vitamins and minerals through food sources as much as possible. But even saying "as much as possible" causes me concern because any way of eating has to provide all we need without supplementing (again, aside from B12) right? Yet every time I turn around I am reading something about a nutrient we may be missing if we are vegan.
I know Big Ag and the money making machine will have us eating the animals and their products so there is a lot of propaganda out there to support that but I do feel anxiety and worry that I'm not eating correctly to meet my needs when I read things, for example, about non heme iron not being as well absorbed by the body. So that I didn't have to type lots of info, I have copied and pasted the following statements from a website:

• "Vitamin A – It is approximately 20 times more bioavailableanimal-based food than plant-based foods.
  
  • In fact, plant foods don’t actually have vitamin A. They have carotenoids which have to be converted to Vitamin A.
• Vitamin B – Animal-based foods are the best source of B Vitamins. Especially B12.
• Vitamin C – Plant-based foods are a better source of vitamin C. Does it matter? (Hint: Yes and No.)
• Vitamin D – Plants don’t contain Vitamin D3 (the form our body needs). Sun and meat is our answer here.
  
  • Plants have Vitamin D2, and our body can convert some D2 to D3
  • Fungi are also a source of vitamin D
• Vitamin E – Plant-based foods have higher concentrations of vitamin E. And for good reason. A plant-based diet requires additional protection from oxidation of PUFA which Vitamin E helps provide through its antioxidant properties. It’s still found in adequate supply in meat.
• Vitamin K – Both plant and animal foods have the K1 version; however, plants don’t have K2 which is vital for human life.
  
  • K2 also has numerous forms. The essential kind we need is MK-4, which is only in animal food. We can convert some K1 to MK-4 but generally not enough to meet our needs.
    
    While all essential minerals can be found in both plant and animal foods, there is a stark difference in absorption of these micronutrients. Animal-based nutrients have higher bioavailability as well as less hindrance from antinutrients that come “pre-packaged” with plant-based food.
    
  • Plant-based foods aren’t just harder to absorb, but they tend to have smaller quantities of the “big hitters.”
    
    For example, many plant-based foods are lower in iodine and zinc compared to animal foods.
    
    Most plant-based foods are incomplete proteins. This means various plant-based foods have to be combined to get all the amino acids needed. Exacerbating the situation, these proteins are mostly found in plant seeds which often contain the highest concentrations of antinutrients and phytochemicals that can impair human health.
• Plant-based foods do not supply dietary cholesterol. Only animal-based foods do. Evidence suggest this has significant health implications. Especially for the brain that hogs 25% of all bodily cholesterol. "
  So I read this kind of thing and I become very concerned. I end up looking into how much calcium is in Kale and try to work out how much I would need to consume to meet my daily requirements and I often end up doing this for lots of things and end up thinking I will not be able to consume all that in one day or I won't have enough calcium or folate etc so I must be deficient.
  I had a phone appt with a GP the other day. He was one I have not spoken to before. When I told him I was vegan he said that it was a very high probability that no matter how well, varied and healthy I eat, I would be deficient in many nutrients. I was shocked by his words. Since then my worry has increased and not only for my health but the implications if that were correct. Someone else on this site shared a blog post in which the author said my feelings exactly and that was if I can not get what I need from my diet to be healthy then that means that to harm animals is not morally wrong and my whole way of life , avoiding harming them, is not sustainable or correct.
  Sometimes I wonder if all this worry is just because it is so different from the way of life I was raised with, the world was raised with really. Before i was vegan I didn't worry about my vitamins and nutrients but was that because I didn't need to, as they were more abundant and complete or was it just that a confidence was there because it is what we knew so well?
  
  Sorry for the long post.

Big corporations dictated what people eat, and what little physicians are taught about nutrition.
Vegans don't eat animal products. Nothing more, nothing less. Omnivores eat animal products and plant products. Either can be well nourished or malnourished.
All you've written about nutrients sound like a page out of Mercola, or any other meat dairy or egg funded site.
Society is used to how people function with animal based diets. The digestive problems, constipation, the heart disease, the diabetes, the obesity......
I've seen many people taken out by ambulances simply from lack of potassium. All meat eaters. Most every life style disease is linked to eating animal products. Yet, they will hold their ground and yell about vegan diets.
It's always suggested that people use nutrition diet sites to track their diet when they go vegan, and many go nuts in shock that they aren't getting what they need! Did they ever bother to use them when they ate animals? Do they realize our needs are different when getting nutrients from plants, and no, it's not always insufficient!

Dr Greger laid out the Daily Dozen way of eating which lists a days worth of nutrition based on serving sizes of plant based foods. It's all you need, with the addition of B12 and suggested algae DHA and D as needed. Dha is found in sea foods, whether plant or fish. D3 can be either from sheep lanolin or lichens (and some other plant form I forget)

While saying vegan or omni doen't imply health benefits, a whole food plant based diet is the only well documented and proven course to both prevent and reverse disease. You'll find many who swear by it who would never say the word 'vegan', yet it is by default, a vegan diet

 

[Lou]

Wow. no wonder you are dazed and confused.

Actually I went three something similar when I first became vegan. As you and Silva both mentioned - there is just so much mis-information out there.

I think I might tackle your post a little bit at a time. I mean really that was just so much...

But I think I can put your mind to ease pretty quickly here and now and maybe come back to some of your concerns one-at-a-time at a later date.

first off, although it somewhat complicated - in other ways its pretty simple.
If you are eating a lot of variety of healthy plant based Whole Foods it would be very difficult to impossible to get sick from too little (or too much) of any micronutrient.

Again to reiterate Silva, the daily dozen is a great tool. There is an app but I like what I did. I printed it out and laminated it and stuck it to the frig along side an erasable marker. I don't always finish checking all the boxes but it's a quick and easy visual reference so you can see how you are doing.

At first glance it seems like an awful lot of food. but the serving sizes are really small.

This is what I have laminated on my frig

https://www.cityofwaupaca.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Dr-Gregers-Daily-Dozen_DrKay.pdf

There are, IMHO , a few must have supplements: Vitamin D, B12, and Maybe omega 3.
However, if you need to calm down a bit - how about a multi vitamin? I used to take DEVA Tiny Tablets. They are very minimalist in every way - but since they have a little bit of everything you can probably rest easy that your requirements are being met. And since they have just a little bit - you are unlikely to get too much of anything. They are also cheap. Like 4¢ a day. Or even go up to 10¢ a day for DEVAs full size multi. There are even some full spectrum vegan multis, but they are about $1/day and probably over kill. But TerraSeed looks like the best of the bunch.

You might also try the "am I feeling ok today?" Test. All the micronutrient deficiencies have symptoms.

Finally, I can't tell you how many times I've recommended CronOmeter to new vegans on this site.
There is a bit of a learning curve to it. Also I've heard it triggers people with eating disorders. but I love it cause it takes all the guess work out of your diet. If you need help with CronOmeter, just send me a PM.

I'll try to get back to you on some of those other issues you have.

 

[silva]

I've been there. I was vegetarian in my teens until I married, then on/off. When I became pregnant I really got scared. There were so many health scares of veganism, but the only things said about eating animals, it was always " eat healthy" was always enough.

Anyway, when I realized I didn't need meat it certainly solidified my resolve

One thing I will add, vegetarianism does seem to attract those with OCD. Having the empathy to acknowledge animals are bred just to be killed for no reason alone is pretty traumatic in itself!

 

[majorbloodnok]

...
Someone else on this site shared a blog post in which the author said my feelings exactly and that was if I can not get what I need from my diet to be healthy then that means that to harm animals is not morally wrong and my whole way of life , avoiding harming them, is not sustainable or correct.
...

There's a lot in your post, as others have mentioned, but this part seems to summarise the crux of your dilemma.

As an omnivore myself, I'm not going to attempt to argue one way or the other on the morality of consuming animal products; that's something I said quite some time ago on this site that I wouldn't do. Nonetheless, there are a few key points that should be helpful in calming your mind.

It is quite well researched that we as a species have spent enough time in evolutionary terms as omnivores that it is now difficult for our bodies to obtain one or two important micronutrients from a fully plant-based diet. That does make it reasonable to say we're "designed" to eat meat. However, we've also evolved in intelligence enough to be able to mass-produce those micronutrients as dietary supplements.

If we were to suggest we should only use our bodies "as designed", that would also mean avoiding consuming any clinical supplements (i.e. medicines) except by chewing on the herbs in their original form. Clearly, apart perhaps from Jehovah's Witnesses, we can all agree there is nothing wrong with using our intelligence to give our natural design a bit of a helping hand here, and I'd suggest the same applies to dietary supplements.

If, of course, one's diet needs to be supplemented by a whole shopping list of synthesised extras for us to maintain our health, it is an indicator that that particular chosen diet is not a good foundation. This is the main issue with trying to convert one's cat to a vegan diet - square pegs and round holes spring to mind. However, the only final arbiter is whether or not the consumer is able to maintain their health, so whether that's through a completely natural diet or a completely synthetic one is simply a matter of choice.

Eventually, if you ensure you are reasonably well informed on nutritional matters and consume an intelligently balanced plant-based diet and just a couple of recommended supplements you can maintain perfectly good health. That then leaves you free to define your own moral stance without having to choose between ethics and nutritional wellbeing.

 

[Sunny]

All you've written about nutrients sound like a page out of Mercola, or any other meat dairy or egg funded site.

It was a site by someone called Kevin Stock, apparently a big meat eater, that I copied and pasted that stuff from.

 

[Sunny]

One thing I will add, vegetarianism does seem to attract those with OCD. Having the empathy to acknowledge animals are bred just to be killed for no reason alone is pretty traumatic in itself!

Hope you don't mind if I ask you to clarify this. I'm just not sure what you mean ♥

 

[majorbloodnok]

It was a site by someone called Kevin Stock, apparently a big meat eater, that I copied and pasted that stuff from.

On the face of it, that's like (in the 1970s) quoting from British American Tobacco's literature to educate oneself on the health issues of cigarettes. Vested interest, methinks.

Of course, if Kevin Stock has provided links back to the original research that backs up those statements, that's a good place to start. Just because he has a vested interest doesn't automatically wrong; it just means his statements need to be examined more closely.

 

[majorbloodnok]

Hope you don't mind if I ask you to clarify this. I'm just not sure what you mean ♥

People with OCD and (not mentioned) autism often have, despite popular assumptions, higher levels of empathy than most neurotypical people. That means feeling an empathetic link with animals can come easier for those people and therefore makes it more likely they'll take an ethical stance against killing animals for food.

 

[Sunny]

Wow. no wonder you are dazed and confused.

Actually I went three something similar when I first became vegan. As you and Silva both mentioned - there is just so much mis-information out there.

I think I might tackle your post a little bit at a time. I mean really that was just so much...

But I think I can put your mind to ease pretty quickly here and now and maybe come back to some of your concerns one-at-a-time at a later date.

first off, although it somewhat complicated - in other ways its pretty simple.
If you are eating a lot of variety of healthy plant based Whole Foods it would be very difficult to impossible to get sick from too little (or too much) of any micronutrient.

Again to reiterate Silva, the daily dozen is a great tool. There is an app but I like what I did. I printed it out and laminated it and stuck it to the frig along side an erasable marker. I don't always finish checking all the boxes but it's a quick and easy visual reference so you can see how you are doing.

At first glance it seems like an awful lot of food. but the serving sizes are really small.

This is what I have laminated on my frig

https://www.cityofwaupaca.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Dr-Gregers-Daily-Dozen_DrKay.pdf

There are, IMHO , a few must have supplements: Vitamin D, B12, and Maybe omega 3.
However, if you need to calm down a bit - how about a multi vitamin? I used to take DEVA Tiny Tablets. They are very minimalist in every way - but since they have a little bit of everything you can probably rest easy that your requirements are being met. And since they have just a little bit - you are unlikely to get too much of anything. They are also cheap. Like 4¢ a day. Or even go up to 10¢ a day for DEVAs full size multi. There are even some full spectrum vegan multis, but they are about $1/day and probably over kill. But TerraSeed looks like the best of the bunch.

You might also try the "am I feeling ok today?" Test. All the micronutrient deficiencies have symptoms.

Finally, I can't tell you how many times I've recommended CronOmeter to new vegans on this site.
There is a bit of a learning curve to it. Also I've heard it triggers people with eating disorders. but I love it cause it takes all the guess work out of your diet. If you need help with CronOmeter, just send me a PM.

I'll try to get back to you on some of those other issues you have.

I know - there is a lot there- sorry. You mention that if I am eating a lot of variety of healthy plant-based foods it would be hard to become sick but when I look at the weights and amounts on the internet I am quite sure I am not consuming them to those extents and how long can you go on not consuming enough before it takes a toll on one's health I wonder- maybe it wouldn't, maybe we adjust?

I HATE looking into the numbers, it is confusing and boring and such an effort when I simply want to eat my plant-based foods without any concern about consuming enough- the way I used to feel about eating. Can we do that? Surely we must be able to do that right?
I do use cronometer, the free version, and I seem to often fall short on certain things but if I make a big mixed salad, for example, I will guess at the weight of the ingredients so perhaps I am not getting the amounts always correct. And I notice that some foods won't have their nutritional breakdown in the database which will clearly not help.

I've never had an eating disorder thankfully but when I look at cronometer sometimes I do feel anxiety. I started using the Daily Dozen about 2 weeks ago, not actually "daily" though- I am going to print out your page of it though as a useful reminder.

I currently take Together Health vegan multi which I believe is a very good one: Vegan Multi
- and I take Testa Omega 3 DHA & EPA Omega-3 Algae Oil

I remind myself that when I was younger, before going vegan, I took a multi-vitamin. When I was a child, I was given vitamin C and mutli vitamins. I would have to take iron sometimes too- so it doesn't mean a vegan diet is worse than an omni diet- we are just simply USED TO it being the other way around, USED to those foods, right?
I think my anxiety has been exacerbated by the fact that I am desperately trying to lose weight and low carb, high protein foods are not exactly abundant in the plant world. I have really struggled with that. I have now purchased a low cal, low carb shake to help with my weight loss- hopefully.

 

[peakvegan]

I suggest you do some reading of reputable sources. I highly recommend "Eating Plant-based: Scientific answers to your nutrition questions" by Shireen and Zahra Kassam and "How Not to Die" by Michael Greger. You can also look at Home - Plant Based Health Professionals UK which has loads of fantastic resources. It is possible to be nutrient deficient on any kind of diet (for example, most meat eaters do not consume nearly enough fibre) but overall a vegan diet is associated with a lower incidence of just about all the major causes of morbidity in the western world: obesity, hypertension, ischaemic heart disease, diabetes, stroke, dementia etc etc.

 

[Brian W]

I HATE looking into the numbers, it is confusing and boring and such an effort when I simply want to eat my plant-based foods without any concern about consuming enough- the way I used to feel about eating. Can we do that? Surely we must be able to do that right?

I feel the same. Nobody wants their diet to become a constant chemistry lesson! I take a vegan multi (standard chemist brand) and eat a varied diet, focusing on but not always wholefood and I am not dead yet. My wife has IBS and is more limited in what she can eat, and her reasons for going plant based are ecological but she is stronger than me and keeps me on track. I started off being so concerned about every nutrient but then I thought, "Sod it. I'm just going to enjoy my food!" It worked for me. I really hope you find your way.

 

[Sunny]

I feel the same. Nobody wants their diet to become a constant chemistry lesson! I take a vegan multi (standard chemist brand) and eat a varied diet, focusing on but not always wholefood and I am not dead yet. My wife has IBS and is more limited in what she can eat, and her reasons for going plant based are ecological but she is stronger than me and keeps me on track. I started off being so concerned about every nutrient but then I thought, "Sod it. I'm just going to enjoy my food!" It worked for me. I really hope you find your way

When you say "Sod it, Im just going to enjoy my food" do you mean you don't follow a vegan diet or that you are just going to eat your vegan food and stop worrying about it?

 

[KLS52]

Any diet “done right” will provide sufficient nutrients. Vegans and omnis alike get sick and have poor nutrition. So to say that you have to eat an omni diet in order to get all of your nutrients doesn’t pan out. There are millions of omnis who are eating a ton of meat and are still B12 deficient, etc.

 

[Sunny]

Any diet “done right” will provide sufficient nutrients. Vegans and omnis alike get sick and have poor nutrition. So to say that you have to eat an omni diet in order to get all of your nutrients doesn’t pan out. There are millions of omnis who are eating a ton of meat and are still B12 deficient, etc.

I hope you don't think that I said that

 

[KLS52]

I hope you don't think that I said that

No, not at all. Just trying to make you feel better.

 

[500channelsurfer]

Thank you for this thread as I seem to have many of the symptoms of DHA deficiency. I will be heading to the pharmacy for it tomorrow. I have already been covering the D and B12. I realize now that when I used to eat walnuts and chia seeds it was not like this; I did not stop eating them for any particular reason, other than it seems I did not fully understand their importance.

 

[Lou]

Thank you for this thread as I seem to have many of the symptoms of DHA deficiency. I will be heading to the pharmacy for it tomorrow. I have already been covering the D and B12. I realize now that when I used to eat walnuts and chia seeds it was not like this; I did not stop eating them for any particular reason, other than it seems I did not fully understand their importance.

I don't think Walnuts or chia seeds contain any DHA.
They do contain ALA. Our bodies can convert ALA to DHA, but I've read that we are not very good at that. especially as we age. And there are other factors that might inhibit it.

Regardless, you should continue getting some ALA in your diet. It's not hard for vegans.
I like to add one Tbsp of ground flaxseed to my morning oatmeal.
DHA and EPA are almost impossible to get as vegans. So look for an algae based supplement.
Some of those supplements are pretty pricy but you can find some good buys.
I take DEVAs Vegan Omega 3. one pill every other day,

 

[Lou]

@Sunny
another thing you can do to avoid the number crunching is to simply adopt a meal plan that some expert has created. I did this for a while and since my brain is wired that way anyway, I liked following a meal plan. it not only made grocery shopping easier but it also reduced food waste.

There are a lot of good ones out there. I liked the one Fuhrman has in his book Eat To Live. He even has a weight loss version. I don't remember seeing one by Gregar but dollars to donuts there is one out there somewhere. Another Good one is from PCRM. It's under Vegan Kickstart.

These meal plans are usually like 2 - 4 weeks. Also you don't have to follow them for the rest of your life. they will however help you get to that balanced healthy diet you are looking for and then after a few weeks you just are in the habit.

Try This Irresistible Two-Week Vegan Meal Plan | PETA

www.peta.org

Forks Meal Planner – Plant-based Meal Planning Made Easy

Vegan Weight Loss Meal Plan: 1,200 Calories

www.eatingwell.com

 

[Sunny]

@Sunny
another thing you can do to avoid the number crunching is to simply adopt a meal plan that some expert has created. I did this for a while and since my brain is wired that way anyway, I liked following a meal plan. it not only made grocery shopping easier but it also reduced food waste.

There are a lot of good ones out there. I liked the one Fuhrman has in his book Eat To Live. He even has a weight loss version. I don't remember seeing one by Gregar but dollars to donuts there is one out there somewhere. Another Good one is from PCRM. It's under Vegan Kickstart.

These meal plans are usually like 2 - 4 weeks. Also you don't have to follow them for the rest of your life. they will however help you get to that balanced healthy diet you are looking for and then after a few weeks you just are in the habit.

Try This Irresistible Two-Week Vegan Meal Plan | PETA

www.peta.org

Forks Meal Planner – Plant-based Meal Planning Made Easy

Vegan Weight Loss Meal Plan: 1,200 Calories

www.eatingwell.com

Thank you for the links. I had considered following a meal plan, to give me a good clear idea of what I should be consuming. I will check them out I feel like I have been vegan long enough to have a clear idea of what I should be eating but it never hurts to have a freshers course, especially when you consider our entire "eating" lives up to this point have been a one way track to animal consumption and being taught all would be well as long as we carried on that way.

I think I have just got my knickers in a twist because I have been doing so much research into this health issue I am having (previously posted about Burning Mouth Syndrome) and feeling desperate about it. At the same time, trying hard to lose weight (not easy with carby beans, lentils etc). As far as I can tell, and based on the few blood tests I have had, I am deficient in nothing so I am going to stop "number crunching" as you very aptly called it .

I have of course read the anti-vegan information many, many times over the years and ignored anything that was clearly biased or had an agenda but this time I began to wonder - especially after the doctor told me how deficient I would be in so many nutrients. Looking back on that now I can see that really upset me- as stated previously, that would mean the collapse of my belief system really.
I began reading a book while waiting for hubby at an appt. It is called "The Joyful Vegan: How to Stay Vegan in a World That Wants You to Eat Meat, Dairy, and Egg". I am going to make time to carry on with that tonight. It is intelligent and wonderful - and I am sure it would have something to say about people such as the GP who told me how deficient I would be as a vegan.