Veganism Will never Go mainstream

[eddiehamo]

I don’t think that veganism can ever go mainstream, and it’s because of vegan culture. Here’s why.

To clarify, my argument (see full here) doesn’t address the philosophical side of veganism (which I totally agree with) rather, and this might seem strange, but I want to address the politics of veganism in the 3rd world (especially in the middle east)...

Why?​

While they don’t consume the most amount of meat per capita (They still kill an unholy number of animals), this area is of significant interest because -given their perception of veganism (which is a perception largely influenced by vegan activism)- THEY ARE THE LEAST LIKELY TO EVER STOP.
I came up with this criticism/argument to create some discourse to try and find possible solutions (if any).

So here’s why veganism will never break into the middle east...​

• Eid Al Adha: A “festive” holiday where +300 million sheep, cows, goats, and camels are sacrificed as per what the Islamic Religion mandates. (see full history here).

Promoting veganism on the premise that killing animals is immoral will be automatically construed as blasphemous (which is super serious in the middle east, people literally get killed for doing that)

• There is a complete lack of insight when it comes to understanding what meat means to people in the middle east…

Most of the middle eastern population is poor (relative to most western countries). And for people in impoverished communities...Meat means joy, a full belly, and you will always find that less fortunate people use all the power they can muster to have a good, warm meaty meal for themselves and their malnourished families.
Now, plant-based foods are actually cheap and constitute most of the staple foods consumed by the Middle Eastern population, a la fava beans, falafel, and Koshary in Egypt, sabaayad in Somalia, dolma, and taboola in Syria and Iraq
Yet when pitted against meat, vegan foods mean nothing in the face of a good meaty meal, this sentiment propagates the idea that meat means status, if you’re financially stable, it means you’ve got meat in your fridge, meat became something people aspire for.
Promoting veganism on the premise that it's cheaper doesn't work either, because it fails to address the reason as to why financially poor people should stop aspiring for meat, because to them, meat isn't merely a flavor on their tastebuds, but rather, it gives flavor to life.

I know this sounds dim but until someone from the vegan community finds an answer, veganism is limited to 2 outcomes:​

• Either vegan activists will have to adopt an anti-Eid narrative, which means that you’re basically attacking the Islamic religion

Or

• Just stick to converting western omnivores to veganism (which is great) while completely staying out of the Middle East area, which is not great.

That’s it, please tell me if I missed anything and I’m here to get critiqued, and maybe you can help me find the root of the solution because I am not seeing it.

 

[David3]

Is Vegetarianism Un-Islamic? - Animals in Islam

www.animalsinislam.com

 

[David3]

The prince of Dubai (United Arab Emirates) is vegan: Khaled bin Alwaleed Al Saud - Wikipedia

 

[Second Summer]

I think you make good points.

My thoughts on the matter:

Veganism needs a different pitch to succeed in places like the Middle East. It needs to make sense to people who are poor and to people who are Muslim. Neither of these groups are catered for in the typical western vegan messaging / outreach.

(I think in the future we will see different strains or 'denominations' of veganism pop up, sometimes maybe mixed with other philosophies, political persuasions or religious beliefs.)

I'm not sure of the details about Islam and meat consumption. Does the religion of Islam mandate meat eating? Or is that more about the tradition than the actual religion itself? Muslim vegans exist. I even heard someone (I think a Muslim) claim that the Prophet himself must surely have been a vegan or vegetarian because a holy man of such divinity would not consume such "unclean" food as meat.

I think the argument about animal products being wrong for ethical reasons becomes less powerful when realistic alternatives to meat don't exists. In other words, if you're faced with the options of a surviving as an omnivore or suffering ill health / starving to death as a vegan, then most people will choose to live, even if they dislike the idea of consuming animal products.

Therefore, in the Middle East I think the message should not be that consuming animal products are universally ethically wrong. Instead, veganism can be pitched as:

• A cost-saving measure for yourself and your family
• A practice that helps the poor in your community (vegan food can be cheap - think e.g. soup kitchens)
• A way to achieve better health (if practised correctly)
• A way to practice mercy, maybe even a way to cleanse your spirit and get closer to God.

And so on. We should focus on vegan products more than on veganism or "being vegan". We should encourage people to choose vegan products and accept people into the "movement" even if they can't commit to using vegan products exclusively.

 

[Emma JC]

an interesting discussion - I believe the 'status' part of eating meat is huge, not just in the Middle East - it has become a standard by which people are judged and not only for status but for macho/manly reasons as well - lots of change is needed all over the world and maybe, eventually the status will switch around... real men don't eat quiche and that is good!! 'cause eggs n all

Emma JC
Find your vegan soulmate or just a friend. www.spiritualmatchmaking.com

 

[Lou]

an interesting discussion - I believe the 'status' part of eating meat is huge, not just in the Middle East -

Emma JC
Find your vegan soulmate or just a friend. www.spiritualmatchmaking.com

For Muslims its not just status but a religious requirement. I'm not sure but it might just be for Hollidays. The religious requirement might even be satisfied with some symbolism or maybe just small amounts. Maybe even some kind of fake meat.

But I think it must be sort of ok

The Prophet Muhammad said, "There is a meritorious reward for kindness to every living creature." (Riyad as-Salihin 126)

The Halal Vegan Muslim - Halal Vegan Ethics

www.halalwatchworld.org

 

[Mufflon]

I doubt veganism will become mainstream, too, and I don't even have to look outside of my own country to think so. What's worse is that I also have developed some doubts that quite a few vegans don't want veganism to become mainstream.

 

[Lou]

I doubt veganism will become mainstream, too, and I don't even have to look outside of my own country to think so.

Me too. The conservatives in the USA think eating meat is a god given right.

What's worse is that I also have developed some doubts that quite a few vegans don't want veganism to become mainstream.

Not sure why you said that. Is it the vegans who think there are too many processed vegan foods in the frozen food section?

 

[Tom L.]

I'm no expert on Islam, but I think the Sufi Muslims are vegetarian (at least some of them). It is true that Islam does not prohibit eating meat, but neither do most religions- although Hinduism, Buddhism, and some Christian groups encourage vegetarianism. As far as I know, only Jainism forbids eating meat explicitly.

Meat does often seem particularly luxurious to almost anyone if they're rather poor to begin with (think of the opening song from the musical "Oliver": "Food! Glorious Food!")

 

[Mufflon]

Not sure why you said that. Is it the vegans who think there are too many processed vegan foods in the frozen food section?

It's more the vegans who tend to be a bit... "elitist" but yes, maybe what you said is part of that elitism, too.

When I went vegetarian a loooooong time ago it was "eating no animals" and when I went vegan later it was "eat nothing derived from animals". Maybe I just didn't notice other things back then but that seemed to be... "enough".
Nowadays it seems that to "be a real vegan" you have to hold certain political/religious/cultural views, need to boycott this or that company, need to be an activist for this and that and many more things when listening to the "more elitist" group of vegans.

Now imagine for just a minute what would happen if 90% of a country's population would become vegan overnight. )Of course I'm exaggerating now but just try to imagine it.)
The left-winged, anti-organised-religion, environmental-animal-rights-activist Nestle-boycotting vegan would need to share the "vegan label" with the evil SUV-driving old white-(wo)man and the Neo-Nazi.
That seems to be something many are not able to come to terms with. It's practically outrageous. "Being vegan" is associated with so much more than "no animal products" these days - for quite a few people it seems to have become a very important part of their identity, hence there seems to be the problem of "not wanting to share the vegan label with certain groups of people".

 

[Tom L.]

@Mufflon What you write just above may be true. From my perspective, vegans tend to be very strongly left-of-center on the idealogical spectrum- and of course, the other positions and beliefs you listed go along with that. I have a hunch that progressives/radicals adopted veganism along the way.

 

[Mufflon]

I have a hunch that progressives/radicals adopted veganism along the way.

Well, before veganism became "just a little bit more mainstream" it seemed to be mostly left-of-the-center university students who went vegan (can't say I was the big exception, lol).

However, that university-student-crowd has become older and changed some views regarding the world we're living in. So while I guess quite a few of us who adopted veganism in younger years changed in several ways and moved more to the political center while still being vegans.

That alone could be a reason for the growing diversity of the vegan crowd, creating some conflicts.

 

[Lou]

I share your concerns.
IMHO, the One thing that all must vegans must have is the goal of compassion. Our diet and lifestyle flow from the desire to act in a compassionate way.
Hence you see vegans want to boycott and avoid companies and products that don't match their values.
Therefore almost by definition, Neo-Nazis. Can't be vegan.
In fact, you probably won't find any Nazis who want to be called vegan.

People who are concerned with animal rights are probably concerned with human rights, too. And although vegans don't have to be concerned with the environment, what is good for the environment is generally good for people and animals too. Unfortunately, these things are almost entirely associated with the left side of politics. Doesn't need to be. Maybe even shouldn't be. That is the way it happens to be.

Most vegans are usually very far on the left side of the scale. At least compared to the general population. In the USA, even the most progressive of our politicians are reluctant about endorsing veganism. its just too kooky and way too anti-corporate.

In the USA, Conservative Republicans think that eating meat is a god given right. Anytime a person suggests that it might be better if we ate less meat they start crying that liberals are coming for their hamburgers.

But getting back to your point. I Hate it when vegans say to each other that they are not vegan enough. As a minority it's vital that we stick together.

 

[Veganite]

This was a very interesting article, if you have the time for the read. It seems relevant to the conversation.

Moral Vegetarianism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

plato.stanford.edu

 

[Lou]

Good article. I didn't finish it but one of the things I liked is that you could be a moral vegetarian without even considering the morality of killing animals. Just based on environmental harm.

I'll try to get to it later.

 

[Second Summer]

IMHO, the One thing that all must vegans must have is the goal of compassion. Our diet and lifestyle flow from the desire to act in a compassionate way.
Hence you see vegans want to boycott and avoid companies and products that don't match their values.
Therefore almost by definition, Neo-Nazis. Can't be vegan.
In fact, you probably won't find any Nazis who want to be called vegan.

The thing about compassion is that it doesn't have to be afforded to everyone. For example, one might feel compassionate towards animals yet not feel compassionate toward humans. Or just selectively afforded to certain groups of humans while having indifferent or even quite hostile feelings toward certain other groups.

In the alt-right era, I think vegan neo-nazis are definitely a possibility.

And although vegans don't have to be concerned with the environment, what is good for the environment is generally good for people and animals too. Unfortunately, these things are almost entirely associated with the left side of politics.

I may be getting off-topic here, but ... Some might argue that the planet's environmental problems are caused partly or mainly by overpopulation, and that we need to reduce the population to a sustainable level - one way or another. This could be done through voluntary, democratic methods, but as the situation is getting desperate a more authoritarian and even violent approach may be justified. It wouldn't be good for people, but it would be good for the environment and wild animals. Supporters of such thinking may be found on the (authoritarian) far left, but maybe more likely on the far right.

 

[HappyRoxy]

I like your argument and I agree with you.

 

[Lou]

The thing about compassion is that it doesn't have to be afforded to everyone.

Doesn't it? This this is very close t o something I have been wondering about: does compassion have limits? is it a finite resource?

For example, one might feel compassionate towards animals yet not feel compassionate toward humans. Or just selectively afforded to certain groups of humans while having indifferent or even quite hostile feelings toward certain other groups.

In the alt-right era, I think vegan neo-nazis are definitely a possibility.

That doesn't quite seem right. Is it still compassion when it excludes things. seems like that would be something else.

I may be getting off-topic here, but ... Some might argue that the planet's environmental problems are caused partly or mainly by overpopulation, and that we need to reduce the population to a sustainable level - one way or another. This could be done through voluntary, democratic methods, but as the situation is getting desperate a more authoritarian and even violent approach may be justified. It wouldn't be good for people, but it would be good for the environment and wild animals. Supporters of such thinking may be found on the (authoritarian) far left, but maybe more likely on the far right.

Ha. you just explained the premise of about a dozen sci fi movies (and books) .
Logan's Run
Snowpiercer
What ever happened to Monday
the Infinity war ....

 

[Mufflon]

The thing about compassion is that it doesn't have to be afforded to everyone. For example, one might feel compassionate towards animals yet not feel compassionate toward humans. Or just selectively afforded to certain groups of humans while having indifferent or even quite hostile feelings toward certain other groups.

I agree with this. Or one could become vegan for environmental reasons, not because they feel compassionate about animals.

 

[Second Summer]

Doesn't it? This this is very close t o something I have been wondering about: does compassion have limits? is it a finite resource?


That doesn't quite seem right. Is it still compassion when it excludes things. seems like that would be something else.

You raise fair questions. I don't know. But I think it's a fairly common type of feeling.

Ha. you just explained the premise of about a dozen sci fi movies (and books) .
Logan's Run
Snowpiercer
What ever happened to Monday
the Infinity war ....

Ah yes, it's quite a dystopian scenario, I suppose! But these ideas are more than just sci-fi material:

Ecofascism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ecoauthoritarianism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org