Linguistics "Understanding African-American English"

[schmencer]

Since you're so seem so eager for us to brand you a racist, Beancounter, I'm going to just say it: the loser analogy comes across as pretty racist. (I'm not saying you're necessarily being deliberately racist but if you want to take it that way and play the victim, be my guest).

 

[jeneticallymodified]

So does Canadian English default to "to let" or "for rent"? I'm curious now.

And I don't need help to speak like a brummie. Just get me some ice, gin and tonic water. I'll do the rest.

i think 'for rent'. probably cos people buy their 'for rent' signs in stores which are based in america.

By telling people that using this "dialects" is OK, you are causing them more harm than good. By encouraging them to continue using it instead of making an effort to learn standard English, may give you the warm and fuzzies, and may make the minority feel good about himself, but it is equivelant to giving a kid a trophy when he didn't win.

If you want to help minorities break the cycle of poverty, and allow them to grow to their potential, validating this dialect will not accomplish that goal. As a matter of fact, by doing so, you are contributing to the cycle of poverty.

Reality Check:
If an employer has the choice between two candidates, and one uses standard English, and the other uses the "Ebonics" dialect, which one do you suppose the employer is more likely to choose?

things just aren't that clear cut though. making everybody conform completely to the same way of doing things, isn't exactly ideal. you loose out as a result. diversity is responsible for great things.

of course people shouldn't be encouraged to put all of their dark-chocolate eggs into one basket- especially if it's not a basket that's particularly strong and stable, but there is no reason that kids can't be raised 'bi-dialectal'- able to speak two ways equally well.

i live in an area with a huge amount of new immigrants, and the kids all learn canadian-english at school, but many go home and speak differently- be it a different mother tongue, or just a community with it's own slang and dialect. those kids have a distinct advantage, in a lot of cases- because they speak 3 or 4 different tongues, they're familiar with different cultural experiences- they can excel in customer care, government, and social-work fields.

 

[Scorpius]

So it's O.K. to delete entire letters and sometimes syllables out of words (or, in the case of New Yorkers and others, add letters or syllables), but not O.K. to mess with grammar?

Seems a bit arbitrary to me.

I don't think it's arbitrary at all. I think grammar is important, it can be the backbone of a language.

 

[Spang]

The backbone of any language are its swear words.

 

[schmencer]

I don't think it's arbitrary at all. I think grammar is important, it can be the backbone of a language.

Actually, grammar is pretty unimportant for anything but polished/refined conversation. When learning a new language it's most important to focus on vocabulary first, so that you can make yourself understood on some level. Once you've gotten some vocab down you can start learning the grammar. And in the case of Pidgins, people manage to make themselves understood without a formal grammar.

 

[Scorpius]

Well, then I guess bad grammar just bothers me a lot!

 

[mlp]

Actually, grammar is pretty unimportant for anything but polished/refined conversation. When learning a new language it's most important to focus on vocabulary first, so that you can make yourself understood on some level. Once you've gotten some vocab down you can start learning the grammar. And in the case of Pidgins, people manage to make themselves understood without a formal grammar.

This.

Although I enjoy beautifully put together phrases and sentences, and although I frequently wince internally at how people use and misuse language, I try to avoid correcting others' grammar unless it's part of my job. Not only is it impolite, it sets one up for embarrassment. I regularly see people making all kinds of mistakes in the same posts in which they are commenting negatively on others' language usage.

BTW, the three years that I spent in Boston were at a time in my life when I was the most accustomed to hearing different accents, and thus had the least difficulty understanding people with heavy accents, and yet I found true Bostonians to be almost completely unintelligible. It's more than an accent; it really is a dialect, with loads of local idiom and phrasing.

 

[Scorpius]

This.

Although I enjoy beautifully put together phrases and sentences, and although I frequently wince internally at how people use and misuse language, I try to avoid correcting others' grammar unless it's part of my job. Not only is it impolite, it sets one up for embarrassment. I regularly see people making all kinds of mistakes in the same posts in which they are commenting negatively on others' language usage.

BTW, the three years that I spent in Boston were at a time in my life when I was the most accustomed to hearing different accents, and thus had the least difficulty understanding people with heavy accents, and yet I found true Bostonians to be almost completely unintelligible. It's more than an accent; it really is a dialect, with loads of local idiom and phrasing.

Wicked pissah.

 

[beancounter]

Since you're so seem so eager for us to brand you a racist, Beancounter, I'm going to just say it: the loser analogy comes across as pretty racist. (I'm not saying you're necessarily being deliberately racist but if you want to take it that way and play the victim, be my guest).

No I am not eager to be branded as a racist.

Simply acknowledging predictable responses from my years at VB.

and again To lose and loser are two different things within different context

 

[nigel1]

I'm not calling anyone racist, for the record.

You'd be justified, though.

 

[schmencer]

No I am not eager to be branded as a racist.

Simply acknowledging predictable responses from my years at VB.

and again To lose and loser are two different things within different context

Again, feel free to play the victim. And I'm not sure that the distinction between 'to lose' and 'loser' is important here. The issue is that you're categorically calling a group of people 'losers' (or comparing them to losers, whatever) on the basis of a linguistic difference.

 

[kazyeeqen]

opcorn: Ah'll jes' set here 'n lessen to y'all folks jabber on.

I am sooo not hiring you.

 

[K-II]

Is it considered wrong to call it ebonics now? Because that is way shorter.

 

[beancounter]

You'd be justified, though.

Can you say anything more constructive than a "me too" comment?

 

[beancounter]

Again, feel free to play the victim. And I'm not sure that the distinction between 'to lose' and 'loser' is important here. The issue is that you're categorically calling a group of people 'losers' (or comparing them to losers, whatever) on the basis of a linguistic difference.

The distinction is that if they don't learn standard English, it will be harder for them to suceed in life, and I compared that to someone who doesn't practice to improve their game, in which case they are more likely to lose. To call someone a loser is a direct derogotory comment, the intent of which is very different than "to lose", and (based on my early post in this thread) should be obvious that it wasn't my intent.

 

[cornsail]

Well, then I guess bad grammar just bothers me a lot!

The point is that other grammars aren't "bad" (aside from being non-pragmatic in some circumstances) though. Just different. The reason "standard English" tends to be considered standard/correct is because it happens to be the dialect spoken by the majority, including those with power and influence, not due to some inherent rightness or superiority to other dialects.

 

[cornsail]

The issue is that you're categorically calling a group of people 'losers' (or comparing them to losers, whatever) on the basis of a linguistic difference.

As you said, it is on the basis of a linguistic difference. Not a racial difference.

 

[Digger]

I'm surprised nobody has posted the Barbara Billingsley scene from Airplane where she speaks 'jive'. They probably couldn't get away with that today (as well as a LOT of other material in that movie) but I thought it was pretty funny at the time hearing June Cleaver speak jive.

 

[nigel1]

I'm surprised nobody has posted the Barbara Billingsley scene from Airplane where she speaks 'jive'. They probably couldn't get away with that today (as well as a LOT of other material in that movie) but I thought it was pretty funny at the time hearing June Cleaver speak jive.

Her jive was poorly constructed.

 

[Freesia]

I didnt know I had a regional accent until when I was in London I met New zealanders but their accents sounded a little different to I talk and finally I met a girl whose accent sounded similar to mine and I found out she grew up not far away from where I did.

my accent is also tinged with Australian too as I was in Australia for part of my childhood. If I am with any Australians I start subconsciously talking like them, it is like a switch is flipped. I had an Australian accent from when I was about 3 to about age 10.