"True" Vegan

It isn't so sensible to argue about what constitutes being vegan, when it looks beyond the progress one who is vegan seeks to minimize harm to animals. It is not the only set of ethics. It is a process with growth and learning. There are always more ways to reduce harm to animals that we could learn, I have been vegan long enough to realize this process with always more to learn for what it is. One is not vegan when not caring to do this for animals.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lou
When someone describes what they would like Veganism to be, something that’s evolving beyond what the founder of the term described, and uses the term “philosophy” in tadem with “all faucets of life” - that sounds a little like a religon to me. Some people around here talk as if Ethics originates with or is the same as Veganism or something – which is truly ridiculous. That is what prompted my questions – which are obviously all Ethical issues that don’t touch on animals at all.

So you’ve clarified that in your view it’s limited to man’s relationship with animals. Just wanted to make sure ;)

Do you avoid transport where the tires are made partly from animal products? Would you avoid playing or listening to a piano that included wool dampers? In terms of your own explanation of how you would see Veganism I would see that as included. Or is that extreme? On what do you base the difference? It isn’t just convenience is it?

I’m tempted to say the extended definition (as opposed to an encouragement to do what you can within reason) was considered and explicitly left out because it would discourage people from adopting the term Vegan, as well as set Vegans against Vegans judging each other on these things, for ego as well as other reasons.


Leaving out the extended definition (but including it as encouragement to do what one personally can) also reduces hypocrites. You know, like people pointing fingers at others for using bone-char filtered sugar or drinking beer filtered through fish bladders, while driving/riding around in transport that has tires made partly from animal products and listening/playing piano music on pianos with wool dampers.

The bolded part is starting to seem like trolling. These are the sorts of things non-vegans nitpick, like "avocados are pollinated by honey bees" ...I mean "avoiding tires that might have involved partial animal products" is utterly beyond the pale, since "practical and practiceable" are in the definition. I do avoid vehicles whenever possible though for environmental reasons, if you're asking me personally.

Avoiding bone-char sugar (i.e. refined sugar) is much easier than avoiding things like vegetables pollinated by honey bees, as there's coconut sugar, raw sugar, organic cane sugar, maple syrup and agave syrup on the market, even in places like Wal-Mart. Same for avoiding alcohol processed with animal products, since Barnivore.com exists, and anyone could use it within their price range - alcohol isn't a necessity and most people drink it moderately enough that this would be do-able. The exception would be low-income alcoholics, who have more problems than fish bladders.

In debate there's a term called "false equivalence" - it's like when someone says intentionally buying milk chocolate is exactly like accidently buying a loaf of bread that contains whey. It's like when someone says buying cosmetics they know is tested on animals is exactly like being a homeless person who has to accept vegetarian charity when they'd otherwise be vegan. It's also like when someone says knowingly buying refined sugar or non-vegan alcohol (both non-essentials) is exactly like taking the city bus to get to work or school or the market.

Have you ever even read a book like Animal Liberation or Dominion? I think it might be in your best interest if you wish to continue engaging in these sorts of debates.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lou
The bolded part is starting to seem like trolling. These are the sorts of things non-vegans nitpick, like "avocados are pollinated by honey bees" ...I mean "avoiding tires that might have involved partial animal products" is utterly beyond the pale, since "practical and practiceable" are in the definition. I do avoid vehicles whenever possible though for environmental reasons, if you're asking me personally.

My guess is that tires probably don't need animal by products in them, and viable alternative is probably available, but they do because the material might otherwise be wasted product from animal agriculture and is therefore cheap.

My intention wasn't to nitpick or grasp for straws to sustain a position, but it was more to get a gauge of yours. "Practical and practicable" is a guideline that can't really be universal, because it's going to apply to different people based on their circumstances. For example, to someone who dwells inner city might not even need a vehicle, as rail transport might be sufficient. On the other hand, businesses and individuals who rely on more independent transport and doing lots of it (long commuters, interstate trucking/transport etc) will obviously need to take advantage of cost effective materials. The point is, the guideline is going to differ depending on who you are and what your circumstances are.

But animal exploitation is animal exploitation. Personally, I'm not sure this is all "evil" per say, in my mind it sort of depends on how that is carried out and why. Just a few centuries ago, mechanized transport wasn't available and humans who wanted to travel long distances in sometimes rough conditions depended on slave animals such as domesticated horses. In fact, for a long time among many parts, living without a horse to carry you around or pull your carriage would be considered "impractical".

As a Vegan with an animal rights focus, can you put yourself in such a time and tell me you would not use animals as a form of protection/transport if that was the only thing available? If so, is it immoral now just because there are alternatives? Does morality of such use of animals fluctuate on whether there are alternatives?

Avoiding bone-char sugar (i.e. refined sugar) is much easier than avoiding things like vegetables pollinated by honey bees, as there's coconut sugar, raw sugar, organic cane sugar, maple syrup and agave syrup on the market, even in places like Wal-Mart. Same for avoiding alcohol processed with animal products, since Barnivore.com exists, and anyone could use it within their price range - alcohol isn't a necessity and most people drink it moderately enough that this would be do-able. The exception would be low-income alcoholics, who have more problems than fish bladders.

"Necessity" as used here is not really owing to it's definition. Alcohol isn't a necessity, but then neither are refined sugars.

Btw - as a person who has made his own beer for over a decade, I can tell you that fish bladders are in no way needed to clear beer. I'd never heard of them being used before becoming Vegan, but I can tell you they are completely unneeded. All they do is speed up the clearing of newly made beer, something that happens naturally with a little time. In the batch sizes I make (for example, a 42 liter batch), this is accomplished in around 7 days after fermentation is completed.

In debate there's a term called "false equivalence" - it's like when someone says intentionally buying milk chocolate is exactly like accidently buying a loaf of bread that contains whey. It's like when someone says buying cosmetics they know is tested on animals is exactly like being a homeless person who has to accept vegetarian charity when they'd otherwise be vegan. It's also like when someone says knowingly buying refined sugar or non-vegan alcohol (both non-essentials) is exactly like taking the city bus to get to work or school or the market.

Have you ever even read a book like Animal Liberation or Dominion? I think it might be in your best interest if you wish to continue engaging in these sorts of debates.

I can't argue against what I haven't read, so that's not something I can address. Otherwise, I agree with your statement, and I think it highlights the fact that "practical and practicable" is indeed relative. There will be people that will abuse that though - insofar as diet is concerned the only situation I can see where it not being possible is either in captivity where your diet is not up to you, a chosen employment (such as on a sea boat) where your diet is mostly not up to you, or in an arctic region where plant food is extremely limited.

PS: I find it highly amusing that the person who labeled your post "winner", a post that includes the "avocado/bee argument" as an example of trolling, is the same person who has used that exact argument. Perhaps someone should be counseled not to implicate him or herself as engaging in trolling behavior, lol.
 
A friend told me that being a "true" vegan isn't just about the foods people eat. It's also about every other item that could contain animal products or harm animals in the making. I realize that some people try to avoid all, but I was unaware of this potential distinction between like-minded people.

Is that the definition or does it vary from person to person? Is there another word?

I know what you're trying to say as I have experienced what you just have.

So... I have been vegan 9 months now approx. I found out about veganism 12 months ago, and prior to that, I didn't know what a vegan was!! So the journey for me has been a learning curve. Every week I learn news things and only a few months ago realised that the whole idea of being vegan is a lifestyle change including clothes, shoes and toiletries. So all new clothes I buy are now vegan :)

Take it slow and do what you can :)
 
My guess is that tires probably don't need animal by products in them, and viable alternative is probably available, but they do because the material might otherwise be wasted product from animal agriculture and is therefore cheap.

My intention wasn't to nitpick or grasp for straws to sustain a position, but it was more to get a gauge of yours. "Practical and practicable" is a guideline that can't really be universal, because it's going to apply to different people based on their circumstances. For example, to someone who dwells inner city might not even need a vehicle, as rail transport might be sufficient. On the other hand, businesses and individuals who rely on more independent transport and doing lots of it (long commuters, interstate trucking/transport etc) will obviously need to take advantage of cost effective materials. The point is, the guideline is going to differ depending on who you are and what your circumstances are.

But animal exploitation is animal exploitation. Personally, I'm not sure this is all "evil" per say, in my mind it sort of depends on how that is carried out and why. Just a few centuries ago, mechanized transport wasn't available and humans who wanted to travel long distances in sometimes rough conditions depended on slave animals such as domesticated horses. In fact, for a long time among many parts, living without a horse to carry you around or pull your carriage would be considered "impractical".

As a Vegan with an animal rights focus, can you put yourself in such a time and tell me you would not use animals as a form of protection/transport if that was the only thing available? If so, is it immoral now just because there are alternatives? Does morality of such use of animals fluctuate on whether there are alternatives?



"Necessity" as used here is not really owing to it's definition. Alcohol isn't a necessity, but then neither are refined sugars.

Btw - as a person who has made his own beer for over a decade, I can tell you that fish bladders are in no way needed to clear beer. I'd never heard of them being used before becoming Vegan, but I can tell you they are completely unneeded. All they do is speed up the clearing of newly made beer, something that happens naturally with a little time. In the batch sizes I make (for example, a 42 liter batch), this is accomplished in around 7 days after fermentation is completed.



I can't argue against what I haven't read, so that's not something I can address. Otherwise, I agree with your statement, and I think it highlights the fact that "practical and practicable" is indeed relative. There will be people that will abuse that though - insofar as diet is concerned the only situation I can see where it not being possible is either in captivity where your diet is not up to you, a chosen employment (such as on a sea boat) where your diet is mostly not up to you, or in an arctic region where plant food is extremely limited.

PS: I find it highly amusing that the person who labeled your post "winner", a post that includes the "avocado/bee argument" as an example of trolling, is the same person who has used that exact argument. Perhaps someone should be counseled not to implicate him or herself as engaging in trolling behavior, lol.

1) I think we are in agreement about people's circumstances. The people who disappoint me are not working class people who are high school drop outs, but the entitled middle class, particularly those who hypocritically label themselves "environmentalists" or "animal lovers" who make unethical choices out of selfishness or laziness or stubbornness rather than lack of options. I've actually seen "vegan" activists on YouTube who have admitted to buying a silk dress or using a shampoo with animal products in it...like...if you can afford a silk dress, you can definitely afford the vegan fashion alternatives. Vegan shampoo is actually the cheapest thing in the drug store if you get the economy brand, so a so-called activist who uses a shampoo with animal products is just a speciesist and no I don't consider that to be a vegan but someone who is plant-based.

2) I do not consider myself a utilitarian like Peter Singer. I respect him, but I call myself more of a pragmatist. Therefore, my ethics revolve around what is and is not the current circumstance. Honestly when someone starts bringing up "our ancestors" and their use of animals I want to laugh in their face. Right here, right now, we're dealing with climate change and animal brutality on an industrial scale never seen before in human history, obviously we have other options and if we were still living those simple lives where we loved our horses and had a few family goats, we wouldn't even be in this ******* predicament. Veganism is a direct response to post-modern industrial corporate capitalism. I think before this started becoming a problem, vegetarianism was more of the goal.

3) Being able to make your own beer is a privilege that is generally associated with home ownership or the property to do so. I did say that neither alcohol nor refined sugar were necessities so I don't know why you felt a need to point it out again. Barnivore.com is sufficient for locating vegan alcohol (most distilled liquors and cheap American beers are vegan by default, wine is generally more of a problem though there are some good affordable ones like Our Daily Red) and alternatives to refined sugar are found even in supermarkets in small rural towns.

4) Your P.S. was unnecessary and inflammatory and you should talk to that person yourself. The avocados/bee thing was absolutely a troll proposed by a non-vegan on a British television show. Mic the Vegan covered this topic in one of his recent videos.
 
4) Your P.S. was unnecessary and inflammatory and you should talk to that person yourself. The avocados/bee thing was absolutely a troll proposed by a non-vegan on a British television show. Mic the Vegan covered this topic in one of his recent videos.

It's actually gone too far and for too long. The forum is not the place for this type of bullying or vendettas.

Furthermore, this thread is not the place to be discussing your vendetta with another member. Another word in this thread about it and I will be forced to close the discussion, and delete your post.
 
It's actually gone too far and for too long. The forum is not the place for this type of bullying or vendettas.

Furthermore, this thread is not the place to be discussing your vendetta with another member. Another word in this thread about it and I will be forced to close the discussion, and delete your post.

I'm not bullying anyone and I don't have a vendetta, so I'm going to presume this was focused on the person I was responding to, who was obviously trying to bait the person who liked my post.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Veganite