"True" Vegan

[thisnthat]

A friend told me that being a "true" vegan isn't just about the foods people eat. It's also about every other item that could contain animal products or harm animals in the making. I realize that some people try to avoid all, but I was unaware of this potential distinction between like-minded people.

Is that the definition or does it vary from person to person? Is there another word?

 

[Alexia]

I'm not sure what you're asking because all vegans and most vegetarians would refrain from consuming anything with animal by products. Many won't wear leather either, but it depends on why the person chose the vegan diet.

Some may do it for health reasons and that doesn't stop them being a vegan and others choose it for ethical reasons. I find definitions too restrictive and hard core vegans criticize others. To me saying a 'true vegan' is this is quite narrow minded, because who are they to judge?

I have a couple of vegan friends who are both strict and fell out over an issue. One thought supporting cancer research was against vegan principles and the other whose father died of cancer disagreed. She said her father would still be alive if they had found a cure and supports their work. How far do you go? One should still respect the beliefs of others and not criticize them if they do not match theirs.

 

[thisnthat]

Well, that's what made me curious. I don't much care for labels.

It seems that in any group of people any more, there are the hardcore types. My friend was upset, because she's newly vegan and felt like she didn't fit in with some other folks.

I agree with respecting the beliefs of others. I was just curious how people here see it. I was curious about how strict one needs to be, or if it is all based on personal choice.

 

[jillyan10]

I do believe that the definition of vegan is different or it varies from person to person. Other people who call themselves vegan really eat nothing but fruits and vegetables and they go away with products that contain any kind of meat in it. There are also other people who call themselves vegan by eating mostly fruits and vegetables, but they eat meat of fish. As for me, I do balance eating meat and vegetables.

 

[Jade Mae]

It really depends on the person living on his or her vegan life. There are other people that call themselves vegan even if they are consuming milk from cows. Some believe that being a vegan is when we don't eat meat. That would be like a disaster for other animal products can become a food to them and still they call themselves vegan. Others also thought that fruits and vegetables are the only food to eat to call us as Vegan. Honestly, I really don't know but I do believe that being a vegan is when we only eat natural vegetables and fruits.

 

[Alexia]

I do believe that the definition of vegan is different or it varies from person to person. Other people who call themselves vegan really eat nothing but fruits and vegetables and they go away with products that contain any kind of meat in it. There are also other people who call themselves vegan by eating mostly fruits and vegetables, but they eat meat of fish. As for me, I do balance eating meat and vegetables.

Really? I doubt many people who call themselves vegan eat any meat or fish. What would be the point? To be a vegan or vegetarian means you restrict your diet and cut out food groups, so someone who calls themselves vegan and doesn't cut out any food groups probably doesn't understand what vegan means.

 

[Connie]

I believe the OP is asking what the difference between an ethical vegan and a dietary vegan is.

A dietary vegan is what she had described, someone who eats a vegan diet, but it does not extend passed there.

An ethical vegan will also live a vegan lifestyle because they will not use products made from the slaughter of animals either, so no standard shampoo which usually involves the use of animal fat (tallow) to make the soap, being careful that your soap and conditioner are also vegan, that any make up or moisturising creams you use are animal friendly, that you don't use leather or suede products at all so no leather shoes, wallets, handbags, etc.

It is also possible to go a lot further, one or two I have known would avoid anything to do with certain companies who had bad records against animals and their welfare or campaign for better animal rights, 'rescue' animals from labs and generally end up in rather more trouble with the law than I wanted.

 

[Josie]

A vegan doesn't consume, wear or use any animal products. It's just easier to say "I'm a vegan" than to say I'm a vegan except when I wear leather etc. It's not a judgement, it's just a fact.. vegans don't use animal products at all. Vegetarians do though, they just don't eat meat. I would be curious to know who is actually a hardcore vegan though.. most don't realize just how many products and every day things (including life saving things) contribute to animal suffering. All we can do is our best.

 

[LilAnn]

I'm not sure what you're asking because all vegans and most vegetarians would refrain from consuming anything with animal by products. Many won't wear leather either, but it depends on why the person chose the vegan diet.

Some may do it for health reasons and that doesn't stop them being a vegan and others choose it for ethical reasons. I find definitions too restrictive and hard core vegans criticize others. To me saying a 'true vegan' is this is quite narrow minded, because who are they to judge?

I have a couple of vegan friends who are both strict and fell out over an issue. One thought supporting cancer research was against vegan principles and the other whose father died of cancer disagreed. She said her father would still be alive if they had found a cure and supports their work. How far do you go? One should still respect the beliefs of others and not criticize them if they do not match theirs.

maybe its about the reason for their death. Their death should mean something... Saving a life, for instance... or saving 1000s of lives.

 

[VeganStronglift]

Your friend isn't a vegan she is on a plant based diet.

Veganism is a lifestyle where one excludes as many animal products from their lifeas they can.

A plant based diet is a diet that excludes animal products for ethical or health reasons.

 

[vegg]

The definition of veganism I'm familiar with is that it is a philosophy intended to reduce suffering and exploitation as far as is possible. As a result, it is often described as more than a diet. It is a lifestyle, which can or should also include avoiding products and behaviors that result in human exploitation as well as animal exploitation.

At the same time, I don't agree with the notion of there being "true veganism". Generally speaking, different vegans are going to have different levels of knowledge and ability in terms of reducing their harm. Purity isn't a possibility, but we do what we can. That's the definition of veganism I like.

 

[Eugenia Cole]

Its true. A vegan isn't just about the foods that people eat. It's also about every other item that contain animal products.

 

[Nekodaiden]

According to Donald Watson, who coined the term – Vegan is a diet. Primarily, a diet. One that excludes all animal products, uses wholesome food instead. The two are connected because if you neglect the second part, or neglect it too much, it is possible and likely you will not be able to keep the first part. However, the stress is on the first part. The second part helps with the first.

The third part is an encouragement to avoid animal products where you can, and where it is practical and possible. This part is not strict like the first part.

Once you start extending the definition things can get very problematic. When Veganism is broadened widely to include much more than diet, and consequently diet is seen as only a part of Veganism, it’s may be very easy to think of yourself as one while still knowingly and willingly slipping in animal products here and there.

I’m a piano player. My piano is old and I’m currently fixing it up. Recently I’ve learned that the dampers on the piano (that muffle strings when a key is lifted) are made of wool. Is there an alternative? Does it work as well? Can I find it? Will I be able to afford it? Right now, I don’t know, and if there is, I’m neither aware nor could pay the money for it. But I’m not going to stop playing piano, nor am I going to stop enjoying piano music. If you are a Vegan who subscribes to the extended edition of Veganism as a requirement to be called Vegan, then necessarily, you should not enjoy most piano music either. Stage events at concerts. Protest and scream. The musicians and the audience are all participating in animal exploitation. Stop listening to all piano music. You may not be Vegan if you do.

I understand that some animal products find their way into things like tires on your car or buses. Too bad, you may have to walk everywhere, or if you do own a car, pay an extra premium for animal free tires.

This is how ridiculous it can get. Adopt these extended definitions though, and again, the DIET part is only seen as a PART, and you will find that there are “Vegans” who adopt all the extended versions but CHEAT on the diet, because it’s seen only as a part.

I do suspect that some of them do push this intentionally. It’s sort of a round about way of saying “Veganism is impossible! Just do the best you can, even if that means willingly and knowingly eating animal products here and there. Perfection is the enemy!” Such “Vegans” are just manipulating and exploiting the term to keep people addicted to animal products in their diet.

 

[Forest Nymph]

According to Donald Watson, who coined the term – Vegan is a diet. Primarily, a diet. One that excludes all animal products, uses wholesome food instead. The two are connected because if you neglect the second part, or neglect it too much, it is possible and likely you will not be able to keep the first part. However, the stress is on the first part. The second part helps with the first.

The third part is an encouragement to avoid animal products where you can, and where it is practical and possible. This part is not strict like the first part.

Once you start extending the definition things can get very problematic. When Veganism is broadened widely to include much more than diet, and consequently diet is seen as only a part of Veganism, it’s may be very easy to think of yourself as one while still knowingly and willingly slipping in animal products here and there.

I’m a piano player. My piano is old and I’m currently fixing it up. Recently I’ve learned that the dampers on the piano (that muffle strings when a key is lifted) are made of wool. Is there an alternative? Does it work as well? Can I find it? Will I be able to afford it? Right now, I don’t know, and if there is, I’m neither aware nor could pay the money for it. But I’m not going to stop playing piano, nor am I going to stop enjoying piano music. If you are a Vegan who subscribes to the extended edition of Veganism as a requirement to be called Vegan, then necessarily, you should not enjoy most piano music either. Stage events at concerts. Protest and scream. The musicians and the audience are all participating in animal exploitation. Stop listening to all piano music. You may not be Vegan if you do.

I understand that some animal products find their way into things like tires on your car or buses. Too bad, you may have to walk everywhere, or if you do own a car, pay an extra premium for animal free tires.

This is how ridiculous it can get. Adopt these extended definitions though, and again, the DIET part is only seen as a PART, and you will find that there are “Vegans” who adopt all the extended versions but CHEAT on the diet, because it’s seen only as a part.

I do suspect that some of them do push this intentionally. It’s sort of a round about way of saying “Veganism is impossible! Just do the best you can, even if that means willingly and knowingly eating animal products here and there. Perfection is the enemy!” Such “Vegans” are just manipulating and exploiting the term to keep people addicted to animal products in their diet.

You keep saying you know what Donald Watson said, but you do not. He speaks here in an interview, and in the first paragraph he talks about wool; later he calls blood sports and animal experiments competitors for "bottom of the barrel."

http://www.foodsforlife.org.uk/people/Donald-Watson-Vegan/Donald-Watson.html


I don't know what you're hiding, but I'm going to presume it's not a piano. Lots of sincere vegans wear old leather shoes they're too poor to throw away (until they wear out then never buy them again). Your assertion that vegans go further than diet so they can cheat on their diet or so they can make veganism seems "impossible" makes me think you might need some B12.

 

[Nekodaiden]

You keep saying you know what Donald Watson said, but you do not. He speaks here in an interview, and in the first paragraph he talks about wool; later he calls blood sports and animal experiments competitors for "bottom of the barrel."

http://www.foodsforlife.org.uk/people/Donald-Watson-Vegan/Donald-Watson.html

Taken for granted that the interview is word for word true, I don't see how this negates anything. Donald Watson coined the term vegan. He defined it primarily as a diet - strictly no animal foods. His wording also included wholesome foods, as these are necessary to maintain health and stay away from the animal foods. Also in his wording, Vegans are "encouraged" to find alternatives to non-food animal products. It is not a requirement for being one, and I think that is for obvious reasons, some of which I made mention of in my previous post.

vegansociety.today

I don't know what you're hiding, but I'm going to presume it's not a piano. Lots of sincere vegans wear old leather shoes they're too poor to throw away (until they wear out then never buy them again). Your assertion that vegans go further than diet so they can cheat on their diet or so they can make veganism seems "impossible" makes me think you might need some B12.

My piano has old, worn wool dampers and if I can't find a suitable replacement that gives excellent performance, I will be ordering new wool dampers. Not hiding anything.

My assertion was general because if I pointed a finger to any particular person(s) I'd probably get slammed for it. So for the record, I certainly don't believe this characterizes the average person eating a vegan diet, but is much more likely to characterize the person who calls them self a vegan for whatever reason but is cheating regularly (eating animal foods) and trying to justify it by broadening the definition so as to keep the label.

 

[Forest Nymph]

Taken for granted that the interview is word for word true, I don't see how this negates anything. Donald Watson coined the term vegan. He defined it primarily as a diet - strictly no animal foods. His wording also included wholesome foods, as these are necessary to maintain health and stay away from the animal foods. Also in his wording, Vegans are "encouraged" to find alternatives to non-food animal products. It is not a requirement for being one, and I think that is for obvious reasons, some of which I made mention of in my previous post.

vegansociety.today



My piano has old, worn wool dampers and if I can't find a suitable replacement that gives excellent performance, I will be ordering new wool dampers. Not hiding anything.

My assertion was general because if I pointed a finger to any particular person(s) I'd probably get slammed for it. So for the record, I certainly don't believe this characterizes the average person eating a vegan diet, but is much more likely to characterize the person who calls them self a vegan for whatever reason but is cheating regularly (eating animal foods) and trying to justify it by broadening the definition so as to keep the label.

First of all I would never say you weren't vegan if your grandma's piano from 1912 had ivory keys or if you had old wool dampers, or if you lived in a cold climate and had an old leather coat, or if you hike and had old leather boots and some worn wool socks. I doubt very seriously most reasonable vegans would fault you for something you either inherited or still have financial need to use in the present that you purchased before becoming vegan. There definitely are people who say oh you should throw away everything and if they can afford to do that, that's fine for them (that's where this idea of veganism being a privilege stems from) but most average people can't afford to give away expensive coats, shoes or family heirlooms.

However, I don't know why you can't accept that Donald Watson had a problem with animals being "used" for their services and that for him it went beyond diet. This isn't a Bible study class, the vague definition given by the Vegan Society isn't holy scripture or the Lord's Prayer, Watson himself raised complaint with animal testing and so forth, and veganism as a philosophy is the rejection of the humanist idea that only our species matters. Peter Singer took this a step further by popularizing the term speciesism first used by philosopher Richard Ryder in the 1970s. Unlike religion, veganism evolves rather than following an isolated dogma from a stone tablet. Donald Watson was a great man but he isn't Muhammad the Prophet. Even if Watson was a prophet, the fact remains that he too rejected wool and experiments, it's not something vegans made up in 2004 to annoy you.

PETA's stance is typically that people begin with diet and move forward from there. The idea with beginning with diet is that it's got the most fundamental economic impact on a day-to-day basis, is the most critical to human survival, and the health angle or novelty angle appeals to even the most selfish and thoughtless of people.

I've never met anyone who broadened the label so that they could keep eating animal foods, in fact people who broaden the label to include any cruelty to animals usually are the strictest about not cheating. Even if someone did eat a piece of cheese, I think over the course of a lifetime they'd overall do less harm if they were the type to embrace veganism as a holistic philosophy affecting all facets of life and not just diet.

 

[Nekodaiden]

I've never met anyone who broadened the label so that they could keep eating animal foods, in fact people who broaden the label to include any cruelty to animals usually are the strictest about not cheating. Even if someone did eat a piece of cheese, I think over the course of a lifetime they'd overall do less harm if they were the type to embrace veganism as a holistic philosophy affecting all facets of life and not just diet.

Please tell me how Veganism provides you with any information on what to do in the following scenarios:



A) A man or woman is tempted to cheat on their spouse

B) You forgot to study for an art history test and someone slips you the answers.

C) A friend is insecure in her relationship and asks for your advice but you are conflicted because you saw her husband kiss another woman at the bar who also happens to be your friend.

D) You accept a ride home from a stranger who gets aggressive and attempts to rape you.

E) You witness a crime but are afraid to come forward because there is no evidence besides your testimony and the perpetrator knows who you are and where you live.

F) A well to do woman or man wearing expensive clothing and jewelry drops a $100 bill unknowingly and you are the only one around that saw it and pick it up. You need the money.

G) Your roommate is horribly rude, unclean and inconsiderate, but was the only person you could find to help pay the rent. She has been falsely accused, and is going to be kicked out of the residence on these false accusations. You know they are untrue and you also know someone a lot more agreeable is waiting to pay for the empty space.



Please enlighten me. I am presently unaware of any Vegan literature that seeks to explain (much less embrace) “veganism as a holistic philosophy affecting all facets of life and not just diet. “

 

[FredVegrox]

From my perspective there is evolving involved. Veganism would start with avoiding animal products with any food. More about avoiding it will be learned. It is a later, harder part to not have anything that has what is derived from any animals. There are animal products in most material things that people have, and many things are not easily replaced with buying vegan things for them all.

 

[Forest Nymph]

Please tell me how Veganism provides you with any information on what to do in the following scenarios:



A) A man or woman is tempted to cheat on their spouse

B) You forgot to study for an art history test and someone slips you the answers.

C) A friend is insecure in her relationship and asks for your advice but you are conflicted because you saw her husband kiss another woman at the bar who also happens to be your friend.

D) You accept a ride home from a stranger who gets aggressive and attempts to rape you.

E) You witness a crime but are afraid to come forward because there is no evidence besides your testimony and the perpetrator knows who you are and where you live.

F) A well to do woman or man wearing expensive clothing and jewelry drops a $100 bill unknowingly and you are the only one around that saw it and pick it up. You need the money.

G) Your roommate is horribly rude, unclean and inconsiderate, but was the only person you could find to help pay the rent. She has been falsely accused, and is going to be kicked out of the residence on these false accusations. You know they are untrue and you also know someone a lot more agreeable is waiting to pay for the empty space.



Please enlighten me. I am presently unaware of any Vegan literature that seeks to explain (much less embrace) “veganism as a holistic philosophy affecting all facets of life and not just diet. “

Your post is ridiculous and unnecessarily rude. By "holistic" I obviously meant purchasing cleaning products, grooming products, clothing, shoes and furniture that are either vegan and/or cruelty-free. It means vegans don't wear leather, fur, wool, or silk, or continue to knowingly buy from companies that animal test (exceptions may be medication needed for a chronic illness). Vegans seek to buy sweeteners that aren't processed with animal bones, and alcohol (if they drink) that doesn't involve fish bladders or other animal parts. Vegans also care about wildlife, so wouldn't do anything to unnecessarily endanger wildlife with chemicals or reckless behavior.

Some vegans may take this a step further and become activists, do animal rescue, go into conservation work, or teach at a vegan school (they exist) or keep their children in vegan schools or home schooling. All of these things are affecting their lifestyle, free time, hobbies or children. In some cases it affects the jobs that people take, depending on how privileged they are in their economic options.

All of this is pretty holistic and goes beyond diet.

 

[Nekodaiden]

Your post is ridiculous and unnecessarily rude. By "holistic" I obviously meant purchasing cleaning products, grooming products, clothing, shoes and furniture that are either vegan and/or cruelty-free. It means vegans don't wear leather, fur, wool, or silk, or continue to knowingly buy from companies that animal test (exceptions may be medication needed for a chronic illness). Vegans seek to buy sweeteners that aren't processed with animal bones, and alcohol (if they drink) that doesn't involve fish bladders or other animal parts. Vegans also care about wildlife, so wouldn't do anything to unnecessarily endanger wildlife with chemicals or reckless behavior.

Some vegans may take this a step further and become activists, do animal rescue, go into conservation work, or teach at a vegan school (they exist) or keep their children in vegan schools or home schooling. All of these things are affecting their lifestyle, free time, hobbies or children. In some cases it affects the jobs that people take, depending on how privileged they are in their economic options.

All of this is pretty holistic and goes beyond diet.

When someone describes what they would like Veganism to be, something that’s evolving beyond what the founder of the term described, and uses the term “philosophy” in tadem with “all faucets of life” - that sounds a little like a religon to me. Some people around here talk as if Ethics originates with or is the same as Veganism or something – which is truly ridiculous. That is what prompted my questions – which are obviously all Ethical issues that don’t touch on animals at all.

So you’ve clarified that in your view it’s limited to man’s relationship with animals. Just wanted to make sure

Do you avoid transport where the tires are made partly from animal products? Would you avoid playing or listening to a piano that included wool dampers? In terms of your own explanation of how you would see Veganism I would see that as included. Or is that extreme? On what do you base the difference? It isn’t just convenience is it?

I’m tempted to say the extended definition (as opposed to an encouragement to do what you can within reason) was considered and explicitly left out because it would discourage people from adopting the term Vegan, as well as set Vegans against Vegans judging each other on these things, for ego as well as other reasons.


Leaving out the extended definition (but including it as encouragement to do what one personally can) also reduces hypocrites. You know, like people pointing fingers at others for using bone-char filtered sugar or drinking beer filtered through fish bladders, while driving/riding around in transport that has tires made partly from animal products and listening/playing piano music on pianos with wool dampers.