Militant veganism?

[Graeme M]

But why do adult humans, who aren’t supposed to drink milk, need milk alternatives anyway? I think that’s the point @Graeme M is trying to make.

Yes. I'm not criticising people drinking alt milks, nor finding fault with alt milks. I'm saying that vegans should not make the "milk is for babies" argument when clearly vegan adults drink it too. They aren't drinking soy milk because it's a pleasant white liquid, they are drinking it as a direct substitute for actual milk. Why do adults need milk alternatives? Because people, weaned or not, like the taste of milk. It's nothing to do with being a baby. Using the "milk is for babies" argument exposes vegans to ridicule and reputational damage because it's a dumb argument. It would only fly if vegans set the example and didn't drink alt milks.

Anyway, I will leave this one alone now. In my original comment I was pointing out that there are many dumb vegan memes and arguments which I wish vegans wouldn't use. They make us look foolish. There is one argument only for veganism - that animals should not be regarded as property and used unfairly, and we should try to do otherwise whenever we can.

So @Graeme M how Did you defend the cause?

I repeated my comment here earlier. Here it is again:

"Veganism objects to our unfair use of other animals, so the goal is not to use products from animals when we can do that. But that doesn't mean we don't like the taste of milk or using milk in various forms, so like in other contexts it's worth developing alternatives that don't require animal use. In fact finding/developing alternatives is a central plank in vegan principles. Luckily from a production/consumption point of view, all vegans are doing is transferring demand from one kind of producer to another."

 

[1956]

Yes. I'm not criticising people drinking alt milks, nor finding fault with alt milks. I'm saying that vegans should not make the "milk is for babies" argument when clearly vegan adults drink it too. They aren't drinking soy milk because it's a pleasant white liquid, they are drinking it as a direct substitute for actual milk. Why do adults need milk alternatives? Because people, weaned or not, like the taste of milk. It's nothing to do with being a baby. Using the "milk is for babies" argument exposes vegans to ridicule and reputational damage because it's a dumb argument. It would only fly if vegans set the example and didn't drink alt milks.

Anyway, I will leave this one alone now. In my original comment I was pointing out that there are many dumb vegan memes and arguments which I wish vegans wouldn't use. They make us look foolish. There is one argument only for veganism - that animals should not be regarded as property and used unfairly, and we should try to do otherwise whenever we can.


I repeated my comment here earlier. Here it is again:

"Veganism objects to our unfair use of other animals, so the goal is not to use products from animals when we can do that. But that doesn't mean we don't like the taste of milk or using milk in various forms, so like in other contexts it's worth developing alternatives that don't require animal use. In fact finding/developing alternatives is a central plank in vegan principles. Luckily from a production/consumption point of view, all vegans are doing is transferring demand from one kind of producer to another."

For myself I don’t drink alternative milk because it tastes like milk - I doubt that it does! After 30 + years of not drinking dairy milk I haven’t a clue What it tastes like! I drink some soy mylk and mostly oat mylk because I like what It tastes like! For the taste that it gives to my coffee and how it creates lovely sauces… If alternative milk didn’t exist I would most definitely be content to exist without dairy milk… Contrary to what you said I Do drink alternative milk because it is “a pleasant white liquid” - not because it tastes like milk!

Milk is for babies - baby cows or whichever animal produced it… Alternative milk is for humans…
As for your comment that certain memes or arguments “make Us look foolish” remember as you have said You are Not a Vegan!

Your last paragraph is well stated! Although I would take exception to liking the taste of milk, I enjoy how alternatives Mimic the effect that dairy milk provides… That is a Big difference!

 

[Graeme M]

Milk is for babies - baby cows or whichever animal produced it… Alternative milk is for humans…

Yes, I agree with you, but people are drinking it precisely because it attempts to be a plant-sourced replica of real milk. In fact, Leslie Cross, one of the early founders of veganism, observed that because milk was already so embedded in everyday life it was almost certainly an impossible task to "wean" grown adults from it. He felt that without a non-animal-based alternative, people would be less likely to completely adopt veganism. He actually founded a business to produce one of the first commercial plant-based milk alternatives, which he called Plamil.

You can read the history here:

Plamil Foods - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Incidentally, "plamil" is a great name and it's a shame that plant milks generally cannot continue to use that as a descriptor to skirt the concerns of the dairy industry. But of particular interest to us is the name Plamil - "Plant Milk". Not "Plant White Pleasant Liquid".

It's worth noting in this context that veganism originally was formed because some members of the Vegetarian Society felt that didn't go far enough and they wanted to include not consuming milk as part of their stance against use of animals. They were, if you like, non-dairy vegetarians.

They also noticed that it wasn't just milk that mattered and that to make it easier for people to adopt vegan principles, they would need alternatives to animal products and services for those things people were deeply attached to (or which they needed). That's why the definition includes the aim of developing alternatives. Things like fake meat and milk are completely aligned with the definition of veganism. That's why there is some debate within the Society about whether or not to accept cell-based meat alternatives (I believe that as yet they do not formally approve of cell-based alternatives).

As for your comment that certain memes or arguments “make Us look foolish” remember as you have said You are Not a Vegan!

Don't get the wrong idea - I endorse and live vegan principles and actively advocate for veganism. I also have a blog dedicated to advocacy and I've written a short book explaining veganism for everyday consumers.

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