How do you REALLY feel?

[Simon]

Hello,
Not much of a contributor to this forum but as it's the first day of a new year thought I'd ask this question.
I'm an ethical vegan of 2 years and 7 months.
My personal activism is my instagram account, over 600 posts mostly about veganism, just reposts really, but trying to do my bit. My sister in law said to me the other day that she is gonna give Veganuary a go because of my instagram activism, which I was bowled over by. Her dad worked in the meat market so it is a big thing for her.
However, I've just seen a post about how you can cure/improve digestive issues on a vegan diet, which I had to comment on because my digestive problems only started when I went vegan.
Prior to that I considered myself having a cast-iron constitution.
I'm an active self employed dog daycarer/walker/boarder and part time gardener(1 day a week).
4 days a week I walk at least 10 miles with the dogs and the 5th day gardening is literally spent on my feet for 8 hours(I even take the dogs along and walk them at lunch time). Been doing this for the last 10 years.
I'm 51, 5'11" 70kg.
Family history of hyper tension(mine has always been borderline, not needing medication).
I also had a thriving online handmade leather items business which I closed down, when I made the shift, which was the hardest thing to do.
6 months into veganism, I was worried about discolouration and swelling of one of my ankles when I spent a long time on my feet, which because of my work was virtually everyday.
A friend mentioned diabetes so I spoke to my GP, had blood tests done, which came back negative for Diabetes but I was told that I had Hypothyroidism and would need to take the synthetic thyroid hormone, thyroxine for the rest of my life, which all came as a bit of a shock.
I had been waiting for the perceived energy boost and general well being that came hand in hand with adopting the vegan diet, but it never happened and now I had been diagnosed as having a life long chronic illness.
I did ask if veganism had caused the hypothyroidism and was told no, but if I'm honest a nagging doubt remains, as I keep on reading about the negatives of soya on thyroid health.
I cook 85% of my food from scratch, don't really like any of the vegan processed stuff I've tried.
I love the diet, and have embraced cooking properly, to the point it has become a passion.
I do use oil and plant based butter as well as salt and drink a beer with my evening meal as I have always done.
Pretty sure I cover all the bases, nutrient wise.
I supplement with B12 and take a tablespoon of ground flaxseed on my oatmeal most mornings.
I follow all the usual suspects on social media and have recently been aware that a few of the main protagonists have been mentioning digestive issues.
I've also been seeing quite a few vegans turning away from the diet because of health problems, although they do mostly seem to be the extremists, who have tried all the various forms of a PBD.
I replied on the instagram post about correcting digestive problems, that my problems only started with veganism and that if I had adopted a plant based diet for health reasons, I probably would have gone back to eating meat by now.
I have tried digestive enzymes and am now trying celery juice, recommended by that Medical Medium bloke(who I think is probably a shill, but I thought for the sake of 50p a day outlay, I might as well give it a go).
What I would really like to know is how do YOU honestly feel eating a plant based diet?
Apart from the digestive issues and hypothyroidism, my hypertension has not improved as expected.
In all honesty I would say my energy is reduced and I feel that I have lost some muscle mass and strength, my weight has remained the same, belly has got somewhat wider.
I was a keen weekend cyclist (not competitive) and saw my performance drop as well.
In the last 6 months I have noticed my joints becoming stiffer and sore, I feel like an old man in the mornings. My leg muscles feel constantly tight, just like they used to after a heavy work out, years ago.
Being concerned, I mentioned all this to my GP when I had to have my yearly blood test for the Hypothyroidism.
I was concerned that perhaps I was having absorption issues.
Results came back everything OK.
I guess, I would just like some honest feedback.
We would all love for the rest of the world to go vegan and use everything in our arsenal to convince people to see the light.
I've actually been considering eating some fish or maybe getting some eggs from my local city farm, just to see if anything is different, even though I've heard all there is to know about toxins and cholesterol.
I wonder if there is something almost magical about meat, eggs and dairy in very small quantities as consumed by the people that live in the Blue zones.
I listen to the vegan podcasts and hear the experts telling me that the data is all there and anything that says that meat, eggs and dairy is good for us is funded by those industries.
I realise that saying anything negative about the vegan diet is pretty much sacrilege, especially on a vegan forum, but I'd really appreciate some honest feedback.
For your information I'm not an investigative reporter or meat eating shill looking to refute veganism.
My Instagram handle is simopco if you'd like to confirm and send me a dm.
Thanks for reading, look forward to any replies.

 

[silva]

So many back and forths!
First off, stop mixing the ethical lifestyle of vegans with the health benefits of whole food plant based eating!
Saying you keep a vegan diet implies nothing of health, just as saying you're wfpb implies nothing of ethics

So many people have prevented, and reversed, health problems following a good wfpb diet, as well as maintained good health and weight. It sounds as if you've been mostly focused on vegan aspects, which always include the idea that simply avoiding animal products is healthier, but in reality that isn't neccessarily true.

I started as a vegetarian with very little dairy, and a focus on whole plant foods. When I decided to go completely vegan I became so intrigued learning new baking skills, and veganizing everything- I gained back all the weight I had lost!
I now now many people who do eat meat, but are focused on whole foods, and they undoubtly eat healthier than I have been. There is magic in simply giving up animal products.

Have you researched the wfpb diet? Dr Greger How Not to Die, Forks over Knives, the Food Revolution, PCRM.....

I'm on facebook WFPB sites and while I can attest to how amazing staying true to that, with no oil no sugar, makes me feel, it's really highlighted how much food is an addiction. I found meat quite easy to quit because it's so obvious, dairy cheese much harder, but still ethics made it easier, but my own health still eludes me when faced with a bag of chips or so many of my favorite vegan oil and processed foods

I find it so odd when people who've been vegan contemplate eating animals again, esp when so many people are turning to whole plant foods for the very same problems- with no ethics involved!

Follow this for a month- and get a physical of course- https://veganuary.com/starter-kit/dr-gregers-daily-dozen-checklist/. Apps for both android and apple. This isn't a complete days worth of food, it's approximatly 1200 calories, it's a days nutrition

 

[silva]

I will say that even eating processed foods, sugar and oil, my digestion is better, my cholesterol levels improved. Going dairy free improved my asthma, and arthritis

Sticking to the daily dozen wfpb diet I was able to eliminate allergy meds, close to eliminating asthma but didn't stay true long enough, and my endurance was phenomenally improved! No swelling of joints, no pain. Digestion -no issues.

Medical medium is a shill.

 

[Simon]

Thanks for replying.
I had to laugh, I actually told someone exactly the same thing re:confusing veganism and plant based eating yesterday.
Explaining that veganism as a philosophy has nothing to do with health or environmental issues.
Believe me, there is no confusion, I went vegan for ethical reasons and embraced what I perceived to be a much healthier diet if done correctly as an added bonus.
I had heard about the daily dozen and read about it for the first time 2 days ago. I reckon I meet the criteria probably 90-95 % of the time.
I would consider my diet, pretty good, although as I said I do still use oil and salt and natural sweeteners like maple or agave syrup, but I don't think in excess. I steam veg, use lemon juice with iron rich veggies to aid absorption.
My meat eating days were filled with fried meat maybe 5 times a week, served with fries or roast potatoes with some token boiled vegetables to add colour more than anything. I loved cheese and milk and cream and eggs, usually fried and never had any digestive issues as I still do two and a half years eating wfpb.
I wouldn't say my focus has been just on avoiding animal products, in fact I would say that I have completely learned to cook again using all the ingredients we are told as vegans to use, which being an Englishman aren't naturally part of ones pantry staples.
It has been an education that I've embraced.
My query is borne out of a place of less than optimal health.
I suppose my considering to eat some fish and maybe eggs is a way to dispel the idea that my vegan diet has caused my malady, I'm also very aware that short term benefits can of course be placebo based.
It just seemed such a coincidence that my Hypothyroidism diagnosis occurred 6 months into my veganism.
But the rational part of my brain tells me that it was probably the 40 odd years of eating meat, dairy and eggs that did the damage and not the 6 months of plantbased.
I asked for feedback because I truly wanted to know if everyone is thriving as a vegan or is it something we tell others is working great when really it isn't.
This journey for me wasn't about health it was all about ethics.
I gave up a good regular income because of it and was called a fool, but I believed in veganism 100%.
But as I say there is a nagging doubt and I question whether something so fundamental as nourishment should require such thorough tracking as seems to be necessary on a vegan diet.

 

[silva]

@Simopco -have you supplemented iodine? Whether though sea veggies or a supplement
thyroid health | Health Topics | NutritionFacts.org
If you started eating fish you would obtaining iodine, and feel better, but could be had in so many other ways.

 

[Poppy]

I've been vegan for the last 13 years. I'm a female, 58 years old, 5'2" and maintain a normal weight. I walk most days for 2.5 miles and do yoga regularly. I have normal blood pressure, but it has gone up a little as I've aged. I rarely get sick and seem to have a pretty strong immune system.

My blood numbers are all normal, with the exception of cholesterol which is slightly over 200. I take no medication regularly except for a multi-vitamin, vegan omega-3 DHA and vegan glucosamine (for my joints).

My parents are both in their early 80s, have eaten meat, eggs and dairy their whole lives but have had very few health issues. My Dad takes medication for high blood pressure, and it works well. My mother had uterine cancer at 70 which was cured by a hysterectomy. She takes no medication except for vitamins and estrogen.

So am I in good health because I eat a plant-based diet or because I have good genes? Who knows? I feel fine most of the time, although aging is no piece of cake. I have arthritis in my hands, some lower back achey-ness from time to time, and I'm not nearly as flexible as I used to be,

It seems as though every health study concludes that people in general should reduce consumption of red meat and full fat dairy, increase consumption of vegetables and whole grains, reduce alcohol to few or none, and exercise regularly. While a vegan diet isn't a solution to all of those, it's a good start.

 

[silva]

But as I say there is a nagging doubt and I question whether something so fundamental as nourishment should require such thorough tracking as seems to be necessary on a vegan diet.

Seriously it doesn't. Why do you think so many diseases are cured through wfpb eating? Think for a minute if eating all whole plant based were the norm and someone tried to introduce animal products?
What it is breaking norms and food addiction. It's wiping taste buds to appreciate real food
I'm finding more people switching and sticking to wfpb diets without any regard for ethics and curing a whole range of ills.
Have you seen a registerated dietician? Is your doctor on board with plant based eating?

 

[Andy_T]

Vegan of 10 years here (veg for 20 before that), no issues here apart from being overweight and having high blood pressure.

Sorry to hear about your issues, what gave me pause was that you mention “you feel like an old man” ... well, you kind of are starting to become one ... (I guess I can say that, as I am about your age and do start to feel that some aspects of my body are not as they were when I was 30).

I also do not think that there are any “magical ingredients” in animal foods that we are somehow missing, and am strongly opposed to the “listen to your body” ******** where people tell themselves that once they eat an egg again, every ailment that has been hurting them, miraculously goes away, as I suspect much of that to be self-hypnosis.

Having said that, I would suggest to consult the book “Becoming vegan” by Brenda Davis and Vesanto Melina and talking to a good doctor and/or nutritionist that is open to veganism. Possibly you are lacking something.

Good luck to get to the bottom of your issues!

 

[silva]

Through the holidays I've definitely been eating more poorly, and by that I mean eating sugar, oils, processed foods. I can feel it, my joints are stiff, I don't have the endurance or lung capacity as I do following a wfpb diet. My nose has been runny, and congested.
I do know I'd feel much worse if I added any animal products. Would a little fish feel worse? I have no idea, but I do know it wouldn't make it any better!

I supplement B12, D and algael DHA/EPA-which is all you'd get, and iodine, from fish (without the mercury or death)

 

[Mischief]

Hello,
Not much of a contributor to this forum but as it's the first day of a new year thought I'd ask this question.
I'm an ethical vegan of 2 years and 7 months.
My personal activism is my instagram account, over 600 posts mostly about veganism, just reposts really, but trying to do my bit. My sister in law said to me the other day that she is gonna give Veganuary a go because of my instagram activism, which I was bowled over by. Her dad worked in the meat market so it is a big thing for her.
However, I've just seen a post about how you can cure/improve digestive issues on a vegan diet, which I had to comment on because my digestive problems only started when I went vegan.
Prior to that I considered myself having a cast-iron constitution.
I'm an active self employed dog daycarer/walker/boarder and part time gardener(1 day a week).
4 days a week I walk at least 10 miles with the dogs and the 5th day gardening is literally spent on my feet for 8 hours(I even take the dogs along and walk them at lunch time). Been doing this for the last 10 years.
I'm 51, 5'11" 70kg.
Family history of hyper tension(mine has always been borderline, not needing medication).
I also had a thriving online handmade leather items business which I closed down, when I made the shift, which was the hardest thing to do.
6 months into veganism, I was worried about discolouration and swelling of one of my ankles when I spent a long time on my feet, which because of my work was virtually everyday.
A friend mentioned diabetes so I spoke to my GP, had blood tests done, which came back negative for Diabetes but I was told that I had Hypothyroidism and would need to take the synthetic thyroid hormone, thyroxine for the rest of my life, which all came as a bit of a shock.
I had been waiting for the perceived energy boost and general well being that came hand in hand with adopting the vegan diet, but it never happened and now I had been diagnosed as having a life long chronic illness.
I did ask if veganism had caused the hypothyroidism and was told no, but if I'm honest a nagging doubt remains, as I keep on reading about the negatives of soya on thyroid health.
I cook 85% of my food from scratch, don't really like any of the vegan processed stuff I've tried.
I love the diet, and have embraced cooking properly, to the point it has become a passion.
I do use oil and plant based butter as well as salt and drink a beer with my evening meal as I have always done.
Pretty sure I cover all the bases, nutrient wise.
I supplement with B12 and take a tablespoon of ground flaxseed on my oatmeal most mornings.
I follow all the usual suspects on social media and have recently been aware that a few of the main protagonists have been mentioning digestive issues.
I've also been seeing quite a few vegans turning away from the diet because of health problems, although they do mostly seem to be the extremists, who have tried all the various forms of a PBD.
I replied on the instagram post about correcting digestive problems, that my problems only started with veganism and that if I had adopted a plant based diet for health reasons, I probably would have gone back to eating meat by now.
I have tried digestive enzymes and am now trying celery juice, recommended by that Medical Medium bloke(who I think is probably a shill, but I thought for the sake of 50p a day outlay, I might as well give it a go).
What I would really like to know is how do YOU honestly feel eating a plant based diet?
Apart from the digestive issues and hypothyroidism, my hypertension has not improved as expected.
In all honesty I would say my energy is reduced and I feel that I have lost some muscle mass and strength, my weight has remained the same, belly has got somewhat wider.
I was a keen weekend cyclist (not competitive) and saw my performance drop as well.
In the last 6 months I have noticed my joints becoming stiffer and sore, I feel like an old man in the mornings. My leg muscles feel constantly tight, just like they used to after a heavy work out, years ago.
Being concerned, I mentioned all this to my GP when I had to have my yearly blood test for the Hypothyroidism.
I was concerned that perhaps I was having absorption issues.
Results came back everything OK.
I guess, I would just like some honest feedback.
We would all love for the rest of the world to go vegan and use everything in our arsenal to convince people to see the light.
I've actually been considering eating some fish or maybe getting some eggs from my local city farm, just to see if anything is different, even though I've heard all there is to know about toxins and cholesterol.
I wonder if there is something almost magical about meat, eggs and dairy in very small quantities as consumed by the people that live in the Blue zones.
I listen to the vegan podcasts and hear the experts telling me that the data is all there and anything that says that meat, eggs and dairy is good for us is funded by those industries.
I realise that saying anything negative about the vegan diet is pretty much sacrilege, especially on a vegan forum, but I'd really appreciate some honest feedback.
For your information I'm not an investigative reporter or meat eating shill looking to refute veganism.
My Instagram handle is simopco if you'd like to confirm and send me a dm.
Thanks for reading, look forward to any replies.

Unless you were eating absolute crap for the six months you were vegan before you started experiencing the symptoms you describe, veganism had nothing to do with it.

Frankly, even if you were eating absolute crap, it's highly unlikely that your diet had anything to do with your hypothyroidism. It takes a lot longer than most people realize to go from healthy to having significant health issues based on diet alone.

I'm 62. My experience with aging is this - it's not nice and linear. You're happily muddling along as usual, and suddenly one day, you realize that you've just stepped off one plateau and onto another, and that new plateau is your new normal. At 51, it's normal to be observing these shifts in yourself. And yeah, things are going to feel different than they did when you were 40. It's not realistic to expect otherwise.

You're physically active - that's good. It's important to remain physically active, to remain limber, as you age, because the older you get, the harder it is to regain any function that you've let slip away.

 

[Simon]

@Simopco -have you supplemented iodine? Whether though sea veggies or a supplement
thyroid health | Health Topics | NutritionFacts.org
If you started eating fish you would obtaining iodine, and feel better, but could be had in so many other ways.

I was specifically told by my Endocrinologist that I shouldn't supplement with iodine.

 

[Simon]

I've been vegan for the last 13 years. I'm a female, 58 years old, 5'2" and maintain a normal weight. I walk most days for 2.5 miles and do yoga regularly. I have normal blood pressure, but it has gone up a little as I've aged. I rarely get sick and seem to have a pretty strong immune system.

My blood numbers are all normal, with the exception of cholesterol which is slightly over 200. I take no medication regularly except for a multi-vitamin, vegan omega-3 DHA and vegan glucosamine (for my joints).

My parents are both in their early 80s, have eaten meat, eggs and dairy their whole lives but have had very few health issues. My Dad takes medication for high blood pressure, and it works well. My mother had uterine cancer at 70 which was cured by a hysterectomy. She takes no medication except for vitamins and estrogen.

So am I in good health because I eat a plant-based diet or because I have good genes? Who knows? I feel fine most of the time, although aging is no piece of cake. I have arthritis in my hands, some lower back achey-ness from time to time, and I'm not nearly as flexible as I used to be,

It seems as though every health study concludes that people in general should reduce consumption of red meat and full fat dairy, increase consumption of vegetables and whole grains, reduce alcohol to few or none, and exercise regularly. While a vegan diet isn't a solution to all of those, it's a good start.

Thanks for your reply Poppy.

 

[Simon]

Seriously it doesn't. Why do you think so many diseases are cured through wfpb eating? Think for a minute if eating all whole plant based were the norm and someone tried to introduce animal products?
What it is breaking norms and food addiction. It's wiping taste buds to appreciate real food
I'm finding more people switching and sticking to wfpb diets without any regard for ethics and curing a whole range of ills.
Have you seen a registerated dietician? Is your doctor on board with plant based eating?

Perhaps its a cultural thing, me being British and all. I find myself thinking if a WFPB diet is the optimum why does it take so much scrutiny? It would seem that it is very easy to not meet all your dietary needs on a WFPB diet compared to me not even considering what I ate EVER on an omni diet and feeling fine with no health problems for 48 years.
I have recently had to change my doctor(GP) and have only seen her once, she was rather dismissive and pretty much brushed my concerns off putting them down to Hypothyroidism which in her words is "a very common problem" as though that would allay my concerns and didn't offer any advice in trying to improve my situation. Basically "just keep taking the pills".

 

[Simon]

Unless you were eating absolute crap for the six months you were vegan before you started experiencing the symptoms you describe, veganism had nothing to do with it.

Frankly, even if you were eating absolute crap, it's highly unlikely that your diet had anything to do with your hypothyroidism. It takes a lot longer than most people realize to go from healthy to having significant health issues based on diet alone.

I'm 62. My experience with aging is this - it's not nice and linear. You're happily muddling along as usual, and suddenly one day, you realize that you've just stepped off one plateau and onto another, and that new plateau is your new normal. At 51, it's normal to be observing these shifts in yourself. And yeah, things are going to feel different than they did when you were 40. It's not realistic to expect otherwise.

You're physically active - that's good. It's important to remain physically active, to remain limber, as you age, because the older you get, the harder it is to regain any function that you've let slip away.

Thanks for your reply.
No certainly wasn't eating crap, obviously for the first 6 months I was finding my way, eating more of the processed stuff than I do now, what did happen was that I went from not eating soya products ever to using soya milk and tofu and other meat subs containing soya on a regular basis.
I have just decided to stop using soya milk, instead trying oat milk and limiting tofu to maybe once a week.
Although I'm physically active, I wouldn't say I'm limber, I have a long standing lower back issue that used to flare up maybe once or twice a year but which is now a chronic everyday issue.
For two years prior to going vegan I actually did yoga something that I would struggle with today.
I believe as Hypothyroidism is an Auto-immune problem, this means that I am now more susceptible to other Auto-immune problems. I have recently developed very stiff sore hips and am worried that this could be the start of Rheumatoid Arthritis which would be pretty catastrophic for me.
Again I believed that eating plants was anti inflammatory.
Agree about ageing, but again everything I heard regarding a WFPB diet was going to be beneficial re the ageing process. Not just extending years but aiding quality of life.

 

[silva]

I was specifically told by my Endocrinologist that I shouldn't supplement with iodine.

I'm not familar with hypothyroidism, but there seem to be a number of people with it in the wfpb groups I'm in, iodine deficiency is actually one of it's causes.

I'm not at all sure what you're really looking for, as you don't seem to be asking for advice but more an excuse? You say why do vegan diets get so much scrutiny? Because animals are free--as in being enslaved, trapped, caught, caged, used for whatever with no compensation. Money. Greed. History. Tradition.

It doesn't sound as if you've researched much at all to be honest

 

[Simon]

Vegan of 10 years here (veg for 20 before that), no issues here apart from being overweight and having high blood pressure.

Sorry to hear about your issues, what gave me pause was that you mention “you feel like an old man” ... well, you kind of are starting to become one ... (I guess I can say that, as I am about your age and do start to feel that some aspects of my body are not as they were when I was 30).

I also do not think that there are any “magical ingredients” in animal foods that we are somehow missing, and am strongly opposed to the “listen to your body” ******** where people tell themselves that once they eat an egg again, every ailment that has been hurting them, miraculously goes away, as I suspect much of that to be self-hypnosis.

Having said that, I would suggest to consult the book “Becoming vegan” by Brenda Davis and Vesanto Melina and talking to a good doctor and/or nutritionist that is open to veganism. Possibly you are lacking something.

Good luck to get to the bottom of your issues!

Thanks for your input Andy.
I know, I've thought that these people that eat an egg and feel miraculously cured of whatever they were having problems with are barking mad and just getting a placebo effect.
I take great offence at being called an old man!!!
But seriously, Maybe aches and pains and lowered energy levels at 61, really wasn't expecting anything like this now, I've been active and slim all my life, I spend as much time as I can outside. I compare myself to my 4 siblings, who all lead very sedentary lives are all overweight and suffer with various medical problems and thought I was doing great, then Bam this in the last 6 months or so.

 

[Scorpius]

I was specifically told by my Endocrinologist that I shouldn't supplement with iodine.

This is correct. Your body needs iodine to make thyroid hormone. But seeing you DON'T make thyroid hormone, and are instead replacing it with the levothyroxine, supplementing with iodine would be kinda pointless. Also, if you eat iodized salt you should have no problem meeting your daily needs.

 

[Simon]

I'm not familar with hypothyroidism, but there seem to be a number of people with it in the wfpb groups I'm in, iodine deficiency is actually one of it's causes.

I'm not at all sure what you're really looking for, as you don't seem to be asking for advice but more an excuse? You say why do vegan diets get so much scrutiny? Because animals are free--as in being enslaved, trapped, caught, caged, used for whatever with no compensation. Money. Greed. History. Tradition.

It doesn't sound as if you've researched much at all to be honest

You misunderstand my point.
I meant why does it feel like you have to become a biologist/nutritionist to eat a correct and healthy vegan diet?
I NEVER considered what I was eating when I was Omni and never had any health issues.
Not looking for any excuses, or actually advice really, I was just curious if everyone else is feeling as great as we are told we should feel eating WFPB.
In the UK at least there still persists the idea of vegans as undernourished, weak, tired, depleted beings based on vegans of years past who were obviously not as fortunate as ourselves in having all the research and information to hand.
I have posted about the health benefits of a WFPB diet myself as I think this is probably the most effective way to garner people's interest as most humans are self centred, much more interested in personal gain than helping the plight of farmed animals. However, I personally can't attest to feeling any benefits and would probably lie if asked directly if it had felt better eating plant based, so as to not discourage anyone wanting to try a vegan diet.

 

[silva]

 

[Simon]

This is correct. Your body needs iodine to make thyroid hormone. But seeing you DON'T make thyroid hormone, and are instead replacing it with the levothyroxine, supplementing with iodine would be kinda pointless. Also, if you eat iodized salt you should have no problem meeting your daily needs.

Iodized salt isn't recommended as its highly refined. I believe spirulina is a better source

As I said previously, I'm aware of the daily dozen.
I would say that I don't use spices on every evening meal, so might fall short there and if I eat fruit in any quantity my digestion goes crazy, so limit intake to just one maybe two pieces a day.
Everything else is covered.