US How Did The US Become Obsessed-Protein?

[LoreD]

We can't really compare ourselves to even the other primates. They are basically fruitarians, with maybe some insects, grubs, etc.

Humans have a much more varied diet, and since the advent of cooking, are capable of extracting nutrients from foods that are inedible to other species.

So, comparing a human vegan diet to cows, or even gorillas, doesn't make sense. None of these animals gather around the campfire to boil up a pot of black eyed peas and rice, drink a glass of soymilk, or have a PB& J.

So, unless we can find another animal that cooks, or processes, their food; there is no other comparision.

 

[jalan]

Veganism is not just food. Leather is non vegan, as is silk and using animal parts for any other things.
"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."
I haven't mentioned human physiology. We are definitely more toward herbivorous, although we are obviously omnivores physically.

My point is that using such examples as to why protein is not so important as made out is comparing apples with oranges.

I have been mostly "vegan" for almost 4 years now, but one thing I dislike is fallacious arguments.
Perhaps I should have used that word, rather than disingenuous. But the word is directed at the use of unfair comparisons...

So I’m being fallacious and unfair now… The FIRST and FOREMOST dictionary definition of veganism is regarding food choices, which it’s obvious I was referring to and not the SECOND definition of veganism, which is the other stuff you go on about… Do you also tear down other members posts on technical issues and attack THEIR character???

 

[Emma JC]

in my opinion, the point of comparing ourselves to elephants, cows etc is not that we have the same digestive system, it is that they get all the protein they need, from plants.... not from eating other animals.... and can also do the same, just not always the same plants

Emma JC
Find your vegan soulmate or just a friend. www.spiritualmatchmaking.com

 

[jalan]

in my opinion, the point of comparing ourselves to elephants, cows etc is not that we have the same digestive system, it is that they get all the protein they need, from plants.... not from eating other animals.... and can also do the same, just not always the same plants

Emma JC
Find your vegan soulmate or just a friend. www.spiritualmatchmaking.com

That’s my point exactly, thx

 

[g0rph]

So I’m being fallacious and unfair now… The FIRST and FOREMOST dictionary definition of veganism is regarding food choices, which it’s obvious I was referring to and not the SECOND definition of veganism, which is the other stuff you go on about… Do you also tear down other members posts on technical issues and attack THEIR character???

Again. I am not attacking you personally, just "that type of comparison" which is fallacious as it is not an equal comparison.

The definition I posted was from the Vegan Society which obviously includes all animal exploitation.
If you eat a plant-based diet but buy leather or wool amongst other things, or you are 100% not vegan.
Veganism is an ethical stance, not simply a dietary one.
Hell you could torture cats for fun and be on a "vegan diet".

I am not trying to attack your character. I am simply pointing out the folly in using bad comparisons.

 

[g0rph]

in my opinion, the point of comparing ourselves to elephants, cows etc is not that we have the same digestive system, it is that they get all the protein they need, from plants.... not from eating other animals.... and can also do the same, just not always the same plants

Emma JC
Find your vegan soulmate or just a friend. www.spiritualmatchmaking.com

Yes, but do you not see how this is a bad comparison?

The way we get our nutrients is through our digestive system. So saying "cows eat plants for protein" is not telling the whole story.

 

[g0rph]

We can't really compare ourselves to even the other primates. They are basically fruitarians, with maybe some insects, grubs, etc.

Chimps and Bonobos even kill and eat larger animals.
But the reason we can "kind of compare" is they have very similar digestive systems.

Humans have a much more varied diet, and since the advent of cooking, are capable of extracting nutrients from foods that are inedible to other species.

So, comparing a human vegan diet to cows, or even gorillas, doesn't make sense. None of these animals gather around the campfire to boil up a pot of black eyed peas and rice, drink a glass of soymilk, or have a PB& J.

So, unless we can find another animal that cooks, or processes, their food; there is no other comparision.

I understand the point, although a gorilla, if fed a typical human omnivore diet, would be perfectly healthy in all probability as they are a 98% match DNA wise.

 

[Lou]

We can't really compare ourselves to even the other primates. They are basically fruitarians, with maybe some insects, grubs, etc.

I think the only primate that is classified as a frugivore is the orangutan. The others are all omnivores (like us). Maybe the gorilla.

 

[Lou]

Chimps and Bonobos even kill and eat larger animals.
But the reason we can "kind of compare" is they have very similar digestive systems.

I understand the point, although a gorilla, if fed a typical human omnivore diet, would be perfectly healthy in all probability as they are a 98% match DNA wise.

Their DNA may be the same. but their digestive systems are different.

 

[Lou]

Chimps and Bonobos even kill and eat larger animals.
But the reason we can "kind of compare" is they have very similar digestive systems.

maybe not "very". Our colons are smaller.

 

[Emma JC]

Yes, but do you not see how this is a bad comparison?

The way we get our nutrients is through our digestive system. So saying "cows eat plants for protein" is not telling the whole story.

We don't need to have "the whole story" all the time for everyone. It is about the concept that plants can supply protein in large enough amounts to us and to most mammals. Non-vegans can't even grasp the concept despite cows and elephants and rhinos and sheep and goats being right in front of them all this time.

Emma JC
Find your vegan soulmate or just a friend. www.spiritualmatchmaking.com

 

[g0rph]

We don't need to have "the whole story" all the time for everyone. It is about the concept that plants can supply protein in large enough amounts to us and to most mammals. Non-vegans can't even grasp the concept despite cows and elephants and rhinos and sheep and goats being right in front of them all this time.

Emma JC
Find your vegan soulmate or just a friend. www.spiritualmatchmaking.com

Yes, but they are bad examples. And we don't need them to prove our point.
Any omnivore or carnist debater would tear that comparison to shreds and rightfully so.

Sure we can say things like "All plants have protein"
and "There is more than enough protein in the plants we eat"
or "If you are eating enough of a healthy plant-based diet, then you are getting enough protein"
- All true and easy to demonstrate with data that is irrefutable (to all but Trump supporter level unintelligence)
without comparing to animals that can digest more protein from the food they eat than we can because they have completely different digestive systems.

I like pure, 100% honesty when trying to debate this topic because being caught in a lie, or in this case a fallacious equivalence, does nothing for the cause.
And if I do it, I want it to be pointed out.
I dislike "apples and oranges" comparisons or fruitless claims that we are herbivores, which we plainly are not (accepting that physiologically we are more like herbivores than many omnivores in the wild).

 

[jalan]

Again. I am not attacking you personally, just "that type of comparison" which is fallacious as it is not an equal comparison.

The definition I posted was from the Vegan Society which obviously includes all animal exploitation.
If you eat a plant-based diet but buy leather or wool amongst other things, or you are 100% not vegan.
Veganism is an ethical stance, not simply a dietary one.
Hell you could torture cats for fun and be on a "vegan diet".

I am not trying to attack your character. I am simply pointing out the folly in using bad comparisons.

Haha, ‘folly’, so now you’re suggesting that I’m foolish… you know what, are you trolling on this site? Seems to me that are and you’re not ‘wasting’ my time any longer…

 

[g0rph]

Haha, ‘folly’, so now you’re suggesting that I’m foolish… you know what, are you trolling on this site? Seems to me that are and you’re not ‘wasting’ my time any longer…

You're joking right?
You're sounding like someone who simply wants to be offended rather than actually taking part in the discussion.
How can anyone be so obstinate?
Ah well, I tried.

 

[Marian1942]

This is what I got: .5 g of protein for every pound you weigh. That's 73 grams of protein per day for me. That's what I've always thought.

I've been eating NoCow protein bars, one at almost every meal. There are 20 grams of protein in each bar. These are extremely expensive, and I cannot afford them. It's about $250 a month.

I eat vegan, organic prepared foods. Many Amy's brand soups and frozen bowls.

Could some of you put in how you get enough protein?

 

[Marian1942]

Here's some troubling information about overdoing soy products. I used to drink a lot of soy milk, but I don't anymore. I don't avoid tofu bits in my foods.

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Soy milk has several potential disadvantages, particularly when consumed in large amounts or by specific populations. One major concern is its content of phytoestrogens, specifically isoflavones, which have a chemical structure similar to estrogen. While moderate consumption of soy foods is generally considered safe, high intake during pregnancy may pose risks to fetal development due to these estrogen-like compounds. Similarly, the safety of consuming large amounts of soy during breastfeeding is not well established, so it is recommended to stick to food amounts rather than supplements.

For individuals with certain health conditions, soy milk may be problematic. People with a history of breast cancer or those at high risk should exercise caution, as the effects of soy on breast cancer are still unclear, and while soy foods appear safe, the safety of concentrated soy supplements remains uncertain. Those with under-active thyroid (hypothyroidism), especially if they have low iodine levels, may experience worsened symptoms due to soy's potential to interfere with thyroid hormone synthesis. Individuals with kidney failure should avoid large amounts of soy because phytoestrogens can accumulate to high levels in the blood. Additionally, soy products contain oxalates, which may increase the risk of kidney stones, so those with a history of kidney stones should limit their intake.

Soy milk can also cause digestive issues in some people, including constipation, bloating, nausea, and diarrhea. This is partly due to the presence of phytic acid, an anti-nutrient that can reduce the absorption of minerals like calcium, magnesium, and zinc. Furthermore, soy is a common food allergen, and individuals with allergies to peanuts or other legumes may experience serious allergic reactions to soy. The presence of additives like carrageenan, a seaweed-derived emulsifier used to improve texture, has been linked to gastrointestinal distress and inflammation in some individuals.

Another concern is the processing and sourcing of soy. Most soy grown in the United States is genetically modified to be resistant to herbicides like glyphosate (RoundUp), and residues of this chemical have been found on crops, raising health and environmental concerns. While some processing methods can reduce harmful compounds like allergens, anti-nutritional factors, and biogenic amines, these are often not fully eliminated in commercial products. Although fermented soy products like tempeh or natto are traditionally consumed and may be safer, unfermented soy milk is not a traditional food in most cultures and is highly processed.

Finally, while fortified soy milk provides nutrients like calcium and vitamin D, the body may not absorb these minerals as effectively as those from whole foods due to the lack of essential co-factors like vitamin K2, which is necessary for proper calcium utilization and bone health. This raises concerns about the long-term cardiovascular safety of consuming large amounts of calcium from fortified soy milk without adequate co-nutrients

 

[Lou]

about 0.36 to 0.45 grams of protein per pound of body weight for adults aged 18 to 59. For those aged 60 and older, the recommendation is 0.5 to 0.7 grams per pound of body weight. This is from the USDA's RDA.
International organizations like WHO recommends ever lower percentages.
So you probably only need about 50g of protein a day.

another way to figure it out is probably better. and that is as a percentage of the number of calories you eat per day. Right now the 50/30/20 rule is widely accepted but that might be too much. I prefer the 60/20/20 rule. 60% of your calories should come from carbs., 20% from protein, 20% from fats. There is a lot of research that shows that a high carb diet is healthy.

Definelty skip the protein bars. First off, there is the whole availability and absorbtion thing. Granted the research on this is a little thin, but right now the most widely accepted conclusion is that we can only absorb and utilize about 20 g of protein per meal. So at least some of that protein bar is going to be changed into carbs and nitrogen compounds.

Always best to get your nutrients from Real Foods.

My best advice to you is to reduce your reliance on Prepared foods. They are too expensive and most of them contain too much fat, salt and sugar.

Instead one or two nights a week prepare some bulk meals. I make 4 - 6 servings of a recipe and divide them up and freeze them. Sort of like my own frozen prepared meals but at a quarter of the price and with twice the nutrition. I can give you some of my recipes if you need them.

I do have stir fry and pasta for dinner at least a couple of nights a week. And I have what I call a "big salad" one or two meals a week. But the rest of my meals I prepare ahead and just heat up in the microwave. For instance for dinner I had mushroom lentil stew over mashed sweet potatoes. 300 calories, 18 g protein.
stir fry - 600 calories, 30 g protein .
chocolate peanut butter banana smoothie - 400 calories, 20 g protein.
Peanut butter sandwich 500 calories, 20 g protein
Oatmeal breakfast 300 calories, 16 g protein.
split pea soup, 150, 10

One of the things I recommend to all new nutritionally conscious vegans is an app and website called CronOmeter.
I use it to track my nutrients and micronutrients. There is a bit of a learning curve to it but once you get the hang of it it only takes about 5 minutes (or less) a day. and after you get a handle on your nutrition you can stop using it.

A short but well researched article on protein for vegetarians. I recommend it to everyone.

Protein for Vegetarians (& the myth of incomplete proteins)

How about a 7 day meal plan to get you started.

7-Day High-Protein Vegan Diet Meal Plan, Created by a Dietitian

Want to go vegan but afraid you won't get enough protein? We've got you covered! Try out this 7-day high-protein vegan meal plan to get started.

www.eatingwell.com

 

[Lou]

Oh!! I almost forgot Soy Milk.
8 or 9 g or protein in an 8 ounce serving.
8 oz in my oatemeal or cold cereal. another two glasses with my lunch and dinner - that adds about 25 grams of protein a day I think its less than $2 a day. $60/month.

I buy 2 - 3 half gallons every time I visit the supermarket. My market only has Silk now but they stock plain, original and vanilla. I like plain for cooking. Original for my cereal and smoothies. vanilla to wash down my PB&js or my night time snack.

 

[g0rph]

This is what I got: .5 g of protein for every pound you weigh. That's 73 grams of protein per day for me. That's what I've always thought.

I've been eating NoCow protein bars, one at almost every meal. There are 20 grams of protein in each bar. These are extremely expensive, and I cannot afford them. It's about $250 a month.

I eat vegan, organic prepared foods. Many Amy's brand soups and frozen bowls.

Could some of you put in how you get enough protein?

If you are eating enough food, you are almost certainly eating enough protein.

A quick estimate of a typical day for me.
0.5 litre soy milk - Around 17g protein.

200g Tofu, salad and rice - Approx 33g protein

Baked beans, fries, broccoli - Approx 28g protein.

Total - 78g

Add to that, I make my own energy bars with...
Oats, sesame seeds, mixed dried fruit, fresh banana, crushed nuts (ouch) and usually some melted dark chocolate on top.
I estimate each end segment to be around 5-6g. Dirt cheap and quick and easy to make.
So a random average day that's at least 83 g protein.
And I usually snack on peanuts or cashews adding yet more.

I also keep in a bag of Huel powder for when I am feeling lazy... Super tasty, packed with protein (and everything else needed).

*edit.
A couple of other things to add.
Serving of Lentil curry and rice - Approx 27g protein

Beyond burger with fries - Approx 29-30g protein

Mixed bean chilli with rice - Approx 25-28g protein

Baked potato with baked beans and vegan cheese - Approx 15g

Quorn vegan fillet with rice and peas - Approx 26g

Lasagne with vegan mince (Anama in my case) - Approx 33g

Hell, a peanut butter sandwich is around 13g

 

[Lou]

If you are eating enough food, you are almost certainly eating enough protein.

I agree but....
perhaps we have to add some conditions.

If you are consuming adequate calories you are probably getting enough protein.
If you are eating enough good food...
or healthy food
or a variety of good healthy food....

What comes to mind is the overly restrictive diet that doesn't meet calorie requirements. or a junk food diet that doesn't meet nutritional requirements.