Choline,creatine,taurine,carnitine supplements

[greenfreak]

Hi,

After long research on the web, I still cannot conclude if I, on a vegan diet, need to supplement with choline, creatine, taurine and carnitine supplements.

I do not have any sources in my diet that are high in these, and according to some research, I just need B12 if I am not a meat eater.

Yes, it mentions that the body can ¨synthesize these on it´s own¨ however does mention that these levels are lower in vegans, it does not mention that these are too low and/or those vegans with low levels would have similar symptoms as myself (IBS,fatigue,muscle/bone issues).

I have ruled out everything else, I take sufficient proteines,oil, multivitamin,B12,calcium,magnesium etc.

Thanks for your help!

 

[greenfreak]

I just remembered, that there are some others which I forgot about;

- Lycopene and Biotine (I don´t eat tomatoes or other sources of these)
- K2 (if I do only eat half of the required amount of K1 for synthesis to K2 in the body)
- COQ10

 

[Veganite]

First of all, I am not a nutritionist, doctor. You are getting my opinion based on my own research. Ultimately, you decide what you want to put in your body.

So...in my humble opinion, if you eat a balanced vegan diet, and you're supplementing with B12, you normally should not require any other supplements. Pills/supplements are not a replacement for real whole foods. If you want real vitamins, eat real food. It's that simple.

I have a friend that's been vegan over 25 years now, and they're thriving just fine without supplements, aside from the usual B12. I don't have nearly as long as that, but I also have never felt healthier...without heaps of supplements. I take B12, and that's it.

I don't know why your diet is so limited, whether it's allergies or simply just dislikes, but there's no question if you don't eat what you need in your diet, you will end up deficient, one way or another.

Upon researching, I guarantee you can find just as much info in favour of supplementing as you will apposed. At the end of the day, blood tests don't lie. Go get your blood work done and get the facts. That's what I would do. No point in guessing.

Here's a panel of plant-based doctors discussing supplementation.

 

[Lou]

I'm not a doctor either.
So the first thing I'm going to say is you should go see a doctor.

You said, "similar symptoms as myself (IBS, fatigue, muscle/bone issues)."

If you have those symptoms you should go see a doctor. IBS is notoriously difficult to diagnose. Fatigue is such a common symptom - it has so many causes. it's sort of like the engine light on your dashboard. Something is wrong. but you can't tell from the light being on. It's time to see a mechanic. I don't know what you mean by muscle/bone issue but it just further underlines my conclusion: Go See A Doctor.

All the amino acids you mentioned are Non-Essential Amino Acids. And you are right, "the body can synthesize these on its own¨. I'm assuming that since your research indicated that " these levels are lower in vegans", that they can be tested for. I haven't heard of or seen such a test, but it's not a bad assumption. When you go see a doctor ask to be tested for these.

I imagine there are health issues that might prevent or slow down the production of these other amino acids. Like anemia is not always because of a lack of iron. But if something is inhibiting protein synthesis or absorption you would still end up with protein deficiency, Kwashiorkor. In real life, the only people diagnosed with Kwashiorkor are also calorie deficient. Therefore we go back to the often repeated phrase. If you are eating enough calories you are probably getting enough protein.

However, If you are eating enough calories you are probably getting enough protein, is a bit of a simplification. A vegan who does not eat a large amount and a large variety of foods can risk not getting enough of a particular Essential amino acid. Many novice vegans make a big deal of this. I did too. I remember stressing out about Lysine and Cystine. (but again IRL almost everything has enough essential amino acids - if you eat enough calories)

Now you could do what I did and spend hours on CronOmeter. Or you could just follow any number of the meal plans that are made for vegans. Dr Gregar has the Daily Dozen checklist that almost makes good nutrition idiot proof.

Also, if you were to supplement those other amino acids, it's doubtful that the supplement itself would be vegan. For instance, carnitine is only found in meat.

Oh, one more thing. You said, " I just need B12 if I am not a meat eater." Technically that is true. but most vegans have a bit of a hard time meeting all their nutritional needs without a little help. Iron is tough (especially for females) because nonheme iron isn't as absorbable. and some of our favorite vegan foods inhibit iron absorption. Vitamin D can be tough too, especially if you work indoors and wear a hat outdoors. Cronometer is a good tool for figuring out if you need more of one thing or another.

Meanwhile, go see a doctor. Your health issues may have nothing to do with your diet. It's good to know for sure.

 

[greenfreak]

Hi

Thank you,

Unfortunately, my doctor is an idiot. Blood work for choline, taurine and carnitine is impossible according to them.

My question:

If I take sufficient proteine, fats, vegetables, calories, combined with a multivitamin since I don´t want to eat 1.5 kilo a day, and I do not get lycopene, biotine, COQ2, choline, creatine, taurine, carnitine from my food, do I need to supplement with those?

What is the minimum established amount of source proteins (needed for the body to synthesize choline,creatine,taurine, carnitine), and what is the percentage of people who, even while considering enough of these, still have insufficient synthesis of these?

It is clear to me that choline, taurine, carnitine, does not grow on trees, and I live without freezers and ideally without money, so it would be great if I don´t need to supplement these..

 

[Lou]

Your Doctor might not be an idiot. Also, there are lots of other Doctors you could see instead.

I have never heard of blood tests for specific amino acids. Being that the study you mentioned levels for those, we must assume that they are possible. But they may not be practical or affordable.

"If I take sufficient proteine, fats, vegetables, calories, combined with a multivitamin....."

For now, use CronOmeter to evaluate intake of all the nutrients. CronOmeter does a decent job of evaluating the intake of the Essential amino acids. It also measures two of the conditionally essential - the conditionally essential are important for infants and pregnant women (i think).

You should not have to supplement the non-essential amino acids. Our bodies create those.

"What is the minimum established amount of source proteins (needed for the body to synthesize choline,creatine,taurine, carnitine), and what is the percentage of people who, even while considering enough of these, still have insufficient synthesis of these"

I don't think we know. Most of what we know about essential amino acids is from research on animals. Even just protein requirements are a bit of guesswork. That's why you see so much variation for recommendations. Most of the recommendations are based on averages and empirical evidence. just fall back on the adage If you are eating enough calories you are probably getting enough protein.

just now I googled "choline, taurine, carnitine" and they all fit in a category of "conditionally-essential” nutrients. Almost like vitamins.

"These nutrients include taurine, lipoic acid, choline, and carnitine. They are normally synthesized by the mammalian organism but may be required under special conditions. "
-https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/136/8/2131/4664771

most of those "special conditions" seem to have something to do with babies. Except for choline. Which is typically included in multivitamins.

"It is clear to me that choline, taurine, carnitine, does not grow on trees".
they are made by our own bodies. Just as long as you eat adequate amounts of food.

For further reading
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_amino_acid
https://michaelbluejay.com/veg/protein.html

 

[greenfreak]

STOP TREATMIng PPEOPLE LIKE IDIOTS OF COURSE I HAVE READ UP ON THIS **** BEFORE COMING HERE
GOOD BYE AND GOOD RIDDANCE I AM LEAVING THIS ******** FORUM NOW!!

RECOMMENDIng BLOOD TESTS WHERE THERE ARE NO BLOOD TESTS AVAILABLE FOR THIS

 

[greenfreak]

you normally should not require any other supplements.

i am nor normal, I stated that, so stop replying with useless ****

and why the hell cant i remove my account on this stupid forum?? please do so, thanks

 

[Veganite]

and why the hell cant i remove my account on this stupid forum

Better yet, I ban your freaky profile.

You know, people here give their best trying to help others on this forum. No one in this thread claimed to be an expert in the field of nutrition. In fact, we made it abundantly clear that we're not that. Nonetheless, with our best intentions, we do the best we can to help one another. Furthermore, we try and welcome everyone here, warmly, and with respect. You have proven beyond a doubt that we made a tragic mistake in welcoming you.

GOOD RIDDANCE

Indeed!


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