Arguments Against Veganism

[Hog]

I should clarify Lou. Cute healthy vegan girls like the ones in the above photograph demonstrate the benefits of going vegan. Those girls look mighty fertile. They got some lucky husbands. Seeing is believing.

I watch lots of animal abuse videos because seeing is believing. There are 75,000,000 living and breathing factory-raised pigs in the United States. 121,000,000 pigs are slaughtered every year. I can read articles all day long about animal abuse. For me, the reality of animal abuse is in the watching of the videos. Then I think, if we can allow this to happen to a pig, then we can allow it to happen to a human.

 

[FredVegrox]

Humanely raised animals in animal agriculture is a myth. There are no good arguments to counter vegan choices, I know many reasons to be vegan and only see dismissal or ignoring such reasons. I can't give up such and such meat, ...or cheese, which I hear, is no good reason against it. People only don't change because they don't want to, and don't really give a damn. Still, over 99% of store bought meat is from animals in the worst conditions, these people still get that meat for themselves, along with eggs and cheese.

"If you have men who will exclude any of God's creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men."

Francis of Assisi

 

[Amy SF]

I think knowing arguments against veganism is useful if only so one would know how to counter them. However, trying to debate veganism with people genuinely uninterested in it is like trying to debate pretty much anything with a diehard Trump supporter. They’ll just stick to their favorite talking points, regardless of how BS it sounds, and ignore what you have to say.

 

[Val]

diehard Trump supporter.

Just learned a new word, it appears to be. Sounds pretty hilarious to a foreigner, i even don't know why.

 

[thinman]

Eggs and dairy are the only potentially humanely raised animal products and only on certain family farms - so vegetarians can potentially be cruelty free.

I mentioned to a vegetarian friend who kept chickens, chickens will lay eggs if you keep taking them away and at a cost to the hens health. She was shocked coz she had a small farm animal sanctuary.

 

[FredVegrox]

I agree there is no humane way with raising animals and taking anything from them for use. Only one person told me what might be a legitimate good reason not to eat as a vegan. He told me he is missing something physiological that makes it very unhealthy to not have the animal products he uses. I had not heard of that issue, and I will have to ask him again what he referred to, that I can look into that. But this is a unique case and I see no others can make that claim to not be vegan. There is a generally healthy way with food from plants, and serious issues to us and our world, besides the horrible use of animals, which are more important and not things to dismiss for anything.

 

[Brian W]

I agree there is no humane way with raising animals and taking anything from them for use. Only one person told me what might be a legitimate good reason not to eat as a vegan. He told me he is missing something physiological that makes it very unhealthy to not have the animal products he uses. I had not heard of that issue, and I will have to ask him again what he referred to, that I can look into that. But this is a unique case and I see no others can make that claim to not be vegan. There is a generally healthy way with food from plants, and serious issues to us and our world, besides the horrible use of animals, which are more important and not things to dismiss for anything.

There was a case of a vegan returning to an omnivore diet because her bowels started bleeding due to severe IBS. There might be a vegan way around it but in her position, I would have done the same as she did and started eating animal produce again, at least until I had done some serious research and consulted a doctor on the issue.

 

[vegan89]

"Humane meat"
"humane animal products"

"Humanely" exploiting animals?

I think I've been persuaded such things don't exist:

There's no such thing as humane meat or eggs. Stop kidding yourself

Many people think they consume humane meat, but only a tiny fraction actually do. The majority of consumers are totally wrong about what they eat

www.theguardian.com

Watched a documentary about such "humane" animal farms recently and found they still engage in many of the same cruel practices as factory farms like cutting the testicles out of cows and pigs without anesthesia.

 

[Graeme M]

I would say there are many arguments against veganism and some probably are pretty compelling. At the end of the day, if you are vegan those arguments can be countered, if you are not vegan those argument seem strong.

I suppose the question is, what would be a strong argument against veganism that a vegan would find hard to counter to a non-vegan. Probably the best one would be, why? Why should I choose not to use other animals?

I don't think there is a powerful argument to counter that one. Whatever argument you propose requires some choice on the part of your opponent to change their mind about their own claims and agree with you. In the end, your opponent has to agree that other animal species deserve the same moral consideration as other human beings and there are powerful psychological reasons why people tend not to think that.

 

[Graeme M]

Watched a documentary about such "humane" animal farms recently and found they still engage in many of the same cruel practices as factory farms like cutting the testicles out of cows and pigs without anesthesia.

"Humane" in the context of animal farming does not mean keeping animals in perfect health in completely pleasant surrounds and treated with utmost care all of their life. We do not even do that for other people, so it's rather an unreasonably high bar. Most people interpret that to mean raising animals with the degree of care and welfare that we believe is good enough to meet our standard of what a good enough life is for a farmed animal whose purpose is to be used for food or fibre.

I think it's true that the vast majority of farmed animals are NOT raised in a way that meets everyday ideas of what would be good welfare and it's to our shame most people don't really care. Still, none of this means we cannot raise farmed animals in humane ways. Perhaps just not humane in the way you would prefer.

 

[vegan89]

"Humane" in the context of animal farming does not mean keeping animals in perfect health in completely pleasant surrounds and treated with utmost care all of their life. We do not even do that for other people, so it's rather an unreasonably high bar. Most people interpret that to mean raising animals with the degree of care and welfare that we believe is good enough to meet our standard of what a good enough life is for a farmed animal whose purpose is to be used for food or fibre.

I think it's true that the vast majority of farmed animals are NOT raised in a way that meets everyday ideas of what would be good welfare and it's to our shame most people don't really care. Still, none of this means we cannot raise farmed animals in humane ways. Perhaps just not humane in the way you would prefer.

If US soldiers were captured during a war, and the enemy side cut off their testicles... there is no doubt whatsoever that would be called "torture" ... not merely "inhumane." I cringe just thinking about how painful it would be.

But suddenly when it comes to cows and pigs, you seem eager to dismiss it as acceptable humane treatment.

This is speciesism.

 

[Sax]

A coworker gave me one of my favorites the other day:

One day all life will end, the sun will swallow the earth and eventually all the stars will burn out, so what does it matter if an animal suffered?

We were in the parking lot about to go our separate ways and I didn't feel the need to respond. I mean its not even an argument, it's a defense mechanism. When someone gives up on the whole concept of morality and surrenders to utter nihilism that's checkmate.

 

[anarchist100]

A coworker gave me one of my favorites the other day:

One day all life will end, the sun will swallow the earth and eventually all the stars will burn out, so what does it matter if an animal suffered?

We were in the parking lot about to go our separate ways and I didn't feel the need to respond. I mean its not even an argument, it's a defense mechanism. When someone gives up on the whole concept of morality and surrenders to utter nihilism that's checkmate.

Hmmm, they make a good argument, I'm going to go shoot someone and take their wallet.

 

[vegan89]

A coworker gave me one of my favorites the other day:

One day all life will end, the sun will swallow the earth and eventually all the stars will burn out, so what does it matter if an animal suffered?

We were in the parking lot about to go our separate ways and I didn't feel the need to respond. I mean its not even an argument, it's a defense mechanism. When someone gives up on the whole concept of morality and surrenders to utter nihilism that's checkmate.

The sun won't swallow the Earth for a very long time, and by that time comes around humans might have a colony in another different star system. We certainly seem to be moving in that direction of sending humans out into space (Apollo Program --> Space Shuttle --> International Space Station --> Artemis Program --> commercial space endeavors like SpaceX, Blue Origin, Starlink --> nuclear propulsion technology development for space --> European Space Agency's "Moon Village" --> US Lunar Gateway Space Station --> Proposed human Mars missions in the 2030's).

Even if it was true the sun would swallow the Earth soon, and all humans will go extinct from that, then the morality of the aggregate of human conduct would boil down to some kind of utilitarian calculation concerning the sum total of pleasure and suffering creatures and us experience on this "journey" of life.

That's my opinion, anyway. In which case.. the suffering of the animal matters.

 

[Graeme M]

But suddenly when it comes to cows and pigs, you seem eager to dismiss it as acceptable humane treatment.

I'm not dismissing it, I am saying we could provide farmed animals with welfare sufficient to meet most people's definition of "humane".

When someone gives up on the whole concept of morality and surrenders to utter nihilism that's checkmate.

I guess nothing really does matter, we just choose to pretend some things do. I sometimes wonder about that. Looking at the state of the world, is human morality *that* good an idea? Amoral nature seems to do a better job.