Arguments Against Veganism

Hog

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I spent the past day unsuccessfully searching for plausible arguments against veganism. The strongest argument I found stated that a person could eat only humanely raised animals. Still, raising humanely raised animals seems prohibitively expensive to me.

Here is an example. Suppose that a farmer decides to humanely raise a pig for slaughter. I will call the pig Kelsey. Kelsey needs lots of prime real estate to roam freely. Kelsey would need regular visits from a veterinarian to make sure he is healthy. Kelsy would also need a clean comfortable home, good quality feed and of course a nonviolent pain-free death in his natural environment.

Kelsey probably would not even taste that good anyway. He would be too difficult to chew because he has strong muscles. He would also taste strange because he probably ate some stuff in the natural environment. Kelsey would be a delicacy for the most decadent connoisseur.

Still, I am not sure if we could find a SINGLE humanely raised pig in the United States. Maybe they exist on the same farm that raises humane unicorns. But, seriously, if anyone can find a single example of humanely raised pigs, please let me know. I will email you a gift certificate for Starbucks. (Seriously!)

Below is a picture of Step 2 Humanely Raised Pigs. I am willing to bet that these guys end up eating their own feces half the time.1579549904141.png
 
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Lou

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First off, I think the term humane slaughter is an oxymoron.

Second, I'm not really that interested in finding arguments AGAINST veganism.

However... There was a book I read a while back called the Omnivore's Dilemna. (BTW I still recommend that book to anyone who wants to better understand the American food supply). There was a chapter in that book about a type of farming. I don't think the author gave it a name but since then I have learned that it is sometimes called the Slow Food Movement. The idea goes back at least 100 years and the history if full of half baked ideas. but the general idea is that your farms are small and require few "inputs". (inputs being things the farmer has to buy and bring to the farm. Everything from fuel to fertilizer). And the farm works like an ecosystem - all the parts are dependent on each other. For instance, once the cows are in the pasture a few days they are moved to another pasture so that they don't overgraze. Then the chickens move into the pasture and eat grass and seeds and also the bugs that are attracted to the cow manure. The cow and chicken manure is fertilizer.

Anyway, it painted a pretty picture of a farm working with nature and not against it. But of course, at the end of the day, the chickens still get their heads cut off.

If you or anyone else is interested, here is a link that starts to explain it.

 
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SapphireLightning

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Still, I am not sure if we could find a SINGLE humanely raised pig in the United States. Maybe they exist on the same farm that raises humane unicorns.

HAY! I'm free range! :p

Anyways, as per the title of this thread: About the only thing I could think of would be one for the Nihilist, that being animal agriculture will make human extinction almost a certainty. And once that happened, no more carnists! But that's for nihilists, and not a very good reason to do horrible things to animals.
 
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SapphireLightning

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. but the general idea is that your farms are small and require few "inputs". (inputs being things the farmer has to buy and bring to the farm. Everything from fuel to fertilizer). And the farm works like an ecosystem - all the parts are dependent on each other. For instance, once the cows are in the pasture a few days they are moved to another pasture so that they don't overgraze. Then the chickens move into the pasture and eat grass and seeds and also the bugs that are attracted to the cow manure. The cow and chicken manure is fertilizer.

Anyway, it painted a pretty picture of a farm working with nature and not against it. But of course, at the end of the day, the chickens still get their heads cut off.

Sounds like a wildly over complicated version of veganic farming (which also strives to minimize/eliminate farm inputs) but for carnists... So much work to avoid eating some nice beans, but atleast it gives them the warm feelies* I guess. :/

*As long as their cognitive dissonance lets them forget about the slaughter aspect of it all.
 
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Hog

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I should have stated the motivation behind my post. I want to deeply understand the arguments against going vegan.

A friend recently said, "You could purchase Step 5 Humanely Raised Pigs at Whole Foods." I replied that there is a suspicious lack of disinterested third-party auditors to verify these claims. I did not say anything more.

Another argument that frustrates me is, "You need a complete protein." Frances Moore Lappé who accidentally popularized this idea later apologized for the confusion. She is not a nutritionist, physiologist, or medical doctor. She had no intention of creating the myth of the complementary proteins. But, everyone seems to think that the idea of a complementary protein is based on research.

There is no research or theory to support the idea of complementary proteins. I feel like I am trying to debunk the myth of Big Foot, the Loch Ness Monster, flat earth, or a faked moon landing.

I am not a naive sanctimonious vegan with the intent of destroying capitalism.
 

Forest Nymph

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I personally know humanely raised pigs. I live in a fabled land with ancient forests, Medieval temperatures, and lots of hippies with lots of land. No really. BUT they aren't "humanely slaughtered." 1) There's no such thing by modern standards 2) Even the 250 years ago humane slaughter isnt allowed to be practiced due to health codes.

Eggs and dairy are the only potentially humanely raised animal products and only on certain family farms - so vegetarians can potentially be cruelty free. Where I live, if they're willing to pay more or have their own land or friends who do.

It's possible. But not common. Most vegetarians eat cruel factory farmed eggs and dairy, sadly.
 
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SapphireLightning

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2) Even the 250 years ago humane slaughter isnt allowed to be practiced due to health codes.

How do you humanely kill a being against their will that wants to live, regardless of how little pain it causes? Or are you referring to killing only those that are sick and/or letting elderly animals die of old age?

Eggs and dairy are the only potentially humanely raised animal products and only on certain family farms - so vegetarians can potentially be cruelty free. Where I live, if they're willing to pay more or have their own land or friends who do.

There are a few issues I have with calling any of that humane. In no particular order:
Cows are human breeding experiments gone so horribly wrong that not only is the species we mutilated extinct, but the cows themselves cannot even breed on their own. For this, we really should simply stop breeding them and let them "go" (pugs are an other good example of this, breeding beings in to bodies they must be "saved from" is a horrid practice).
Chickens do not fare much better, many of them being bred to the point of breaking their own legs due to producing a dozen or more times as many eggs as they evolved to in a lifetime. Also, why do you never see 50% of the chickens on these "humane" home farms come in rooster form? Well, they are killed as chicks before purchase of the hen, so the cruelty comes built in. Then there is the whole animal ownership argument, which works for rescues to a limited fashion as the animal has already been bred in to a body that cannot survive in nature, but should never be the norm. This isn't just a "don't treat animals as slaves" issue, but it allows for the mindset that by "owning" chickens and cows (only the females, of course, the males are pre-nonhumanely-killed for the vegetarians' convenience) is being "good" or "helping the animals". This just perpetuates the false ideology that farmed animals "benefit" from us.

So yeah, there are some "hidden in plain sight" issues with any of that. You can't humanely raise (nor kill) an other being if the reason for that beings existence is for a selfish reason as the work put in to the "relationship" is fundamentally one-sided.
 
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Forest Nymph

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How do you humanely kill a being against their will that wants to live, regardless of how little pain it causes? Or are you referring to killing only those that are sick and/or letting elderly animals die of old age?

FIRST OF ALL I said by modern standards there is no humane slaughter (except for merciful euthanasia). But 200 years ago before industrial agriculture most people couldn't be vegan, and there were standards that were more humane (animal is calmed and talked to by a trusted person then killed instantly or as painlessly as possible) that are realistically only able to be practiced on small farms. Its against the law in California to kill pigs yourself for sale. They have to go to the scary slaughterhouse, even if they were raised like pets. Again I do know pigs raised this way. They're basically pets until they're sent away for slaughter. I know the main farmers and also an individual with two pigs and we are getting pigs on campus. It's a different world here it's like partially 1875 and partially 2020.

I make local agriculture my business. I know pig farmers, cattle ranchers, and vegetarians who only eat their pet chickens eggs who give them back the shells plus apple cores etc.

All farmers aren't insane, which might be surprising to city people. It's why I think it's idiotic to attack vegetarians. Well one of several reasons.



There are a few issues I have with calling any of that humane. In no particular order:
Cows are human breeding experiments gone so horribly wrong that not only is the species we mutilated extinct, but the cows themselves cannot even breed on their own. For this, we really should simply stop breeding them and let them "go" (pugs are an other good example of this, breeding beings in to bodies they must be "saved from" is a horrid practice).
Chickens do not fare much better, many of them being bred to the point of breaking their own legs due to producing a dozen or more times as many eggs as they evolved to in a lifetime. Also, why do you never see 50% of the chickens on these "humane" home farms come in rooster form? Well, they are killed as chicks before purchase of the hen, so the cruelty comes built in. Then there is the whole animal ownership argument, which works for rescues to a limited fashion as the animal has already been bred in to a body that cannot survive in nature, but should never be the norm. This isn't just a "don't treat animals as slaves" issue, but it allows for the mindset that by "owning" chickens and cows (only the females, of course, the males are pre-nonhumanely-killed for the vegetarians' convenience) is being "good" or "helping the animals". This just perpetuates the false ideology that farmed animals "benefit" from us.

So yeah, there are some "hidden in plain sight" issues with any of that. You can't humanely raise (nor kill) an other being if the reason for that beings existence is for a selfish reason as the work put in to the "relationship" is fundamentally one-sided.


I can talk to you more about dairy later because I am around local dairy constantly and have also visited a 100 year old goat farm who doesn't slaughter the goats. I have complex views on dairy, and completely understand your concerns (I also have others) so will return when I have more time to thoughtfully respond.
 

Lou

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Another argument that frustrates me is, "You need a complete protein." Frances Moore Lappé who accidentally popularized this idea later apologized for the confusion. She is not a nutritionist, physiologist, or medical doctor. She had no intention of creating the myth of the complementary proteins. But, everyone seems to think that the idea of a complementary protein is based on research.

Actually Frances' ideas were based on research. 100 year old research.

Lappé got her idea from studies that were done 100 years ago, on rats. The researchers found that rats grew best when the proteins in their diets were in the same proportions as found in animal foods. From this finding, animal proteins were arbitrarily labeled first-class while plant proteins were deemed inferior. The problem with this conclusion is that rats are not simply smaller versions of people. Baby rats actually need a higher percentage of protein than do baby humans, because they grow a lot faster. People grow slowly. It takes a baby half a year to double its birth weight. A rat does it in only four and a half days.4.8 So clearly rats are going to need more protein. In fact, rat milk is a whopping 49% protein4.9 — much higher than the mere 6% found in human mother's milk.​
Lappé's idea of protein combining spread like wildfire. Soon the National Research Council and the American Dietetic Association, without bothering to verify the hypothesis, joined in by saying that plant proteins were inferior and had to be combined.4.6​
But it wasn't long before Lappé realized her mistake, and owned up to it. In the 1981 edition of Diet for a Small Planet, she recanted:​
 
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Sax

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I want to deeply understand the arguments against going vegan.

Let me save you some time. There is no argument against veganism. Literally. Not a single one.

There's only ignorance, deflection, and a rapidly shifting set of excuses.

Eating animal products isn't necessary, and continuing to do so amounts to hurting animals for pleasure. Their best bet is to claim that it is necessary for health reasons and drag you into the weeds on whatever study they just read an article about - keep your claims minimal and keep the focus on the big picture (eating animal products isn't necessary because veganism is consistent with good nutrition, long healthy lives and high fitness...as opposed to veganism is the best possible diet because fiber causes gut bacteria to produce propionate which is good for your cardiovascular system). It's much harder to generate a cloud of doubt around simple, minimalist claims.

I've had someone make the health claim while they were eating a hot dog, drinking alcohol and smoking pot. It's almost never in good faith...their choice of food, like their choice of substances, is motivated by pleasure not health.

We all roll our eyes at "bacon tho" but it's the only good faith justification a well informed person can offer. It's a tacit admission that they value a few minutes of flavor in their mouth of the lives and well being of other individuals.
 

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Also, can I just like, have the Starbucks giftcard just because I really want it just because? If I show you a clip of a pig being smarter than a toddler, can I get it like that? I don't think you'll find anyone to prove you wrong, and I need a sugar daddy like soon tbh. Well then again, I don't need one. I just really want one so I can quit my daytime job.
 
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Hog

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My reply to Sax in Italic

Let me save you some time. There is no argument against veganism. Literally. Not a single one.
- I do not like what you are saying, but you are most likely correct for all practical purposes. You are a good man, Sax.
There's only ignorance, deflection, and a rapidly shifting set of excuses.
- Guilty as charged for most of my life.
Eating animal products isn't necessary, and continuing to do so amounts to hurting animals for pleasure.
- This sounds like something out of a horror movie.
Their best bet is to claim that it is necessary for health reasons and drag you into the weeds on whatever study they just read an article about - keep your claims minimal and keep the focus on the big picture (eating animal products isn't necessary because veganism is consistent with good nutrition, long healthy lives and high fitness...as opposed to veganism is the best possible diet because fiber causes gut bacteria to produce propionate which is good for your cardiovascular system). It's much harder to generate a cloud of doubt around simple, minimalist claims.
- Maybe I should collect some pictures of cute healthy half-naked vegan ladies. An inductive argument with pictures should beat a blind deductive argument.
I've had someone make the health claim while they were eating a hot dog, drinking alcohol and smoking pot. It's almost never in good faith...their choice of food, like their choice of substances, is motivated by pleasure not health.
- This happened to me too.
We all roll our eyes at "bacon tho" but it's the only good faith justification a well-informed person can offer. It's a tacit admission that they value a few minutes of flavor in their mouth of the lives and well being of other individuals.
- This is another scene from a horror movie.
 
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Poppy

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Pigs are typically slaughtered between 24 and 29 weeks old. That's when they reach a weight that contains a good amount of meat, but they're still not too big to transport easily. They're only 6 to 7 months old when they're killed. They're still babies.
 
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David3

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According to the University of Illinois, "The typical cow remains in the milking herd less than 4 years even though peak milk production related to maturity ordinarily does not decline until 8 or 9 years of age.": http://livestocktrail.illinois.edu/dairynet/paperdisplay.cfm?contentid=354 . At that point, an economic decision is made to sell the dairy cow for beef.
.
 
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David3

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Pigs are typically slaughtered between 24 and 29 weeks old. That's when they reach a weight that contains a good amount of meat, but they're still not too big to transport easily. They're only 6 to 7 months old when they're killed. They're still babies.

The National Pork Board openly discusses this on their website, but omits this information in their advertising, of course.

.
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Lou

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- Maybe I should collect some pictures of cute healthy half-naked vegan ladies. An inductive argument with pictures should beat a blind deductive argument.

I don't really understand why you think that is a good idea. but if you do that - make a calendar. I would buy one. Heck. I wouldn't be surprised if PETA has one in their store. :p
 
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