You can’t fix stupid.But,maybe you can fix me.

Hog

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  1. Vegan newbie
I am a little autistic. Thus, I unintentionally anger people with my opinions. Thanks to veganforums.org my opinions about vegans are very solidified. Even before I went vegan, I said some fairly stupid things.

For example, I knew someone who liked to competitively ride bulls. He was seriously injured from an unsuccessful bull ride. It nearly killed him. He is now has no use of his arms and legs. In addition, he needs a ventilator to stay alive.

I said that I my sympathy was constrained by the fact that he participated in a dangerous sport that involved antagonizing an animal. Part of the appeal of the sport was that it was dangerous. The guy got seriously injured because he made a choice that the bull did not have. He paid the price for his choice.

Some people say that my opinion is extremely insensitive and offensive. They also say that bull riding was part of the person’s cultural tradition.

After I became vegan, I said another stupid thing. I compared the consumption of eating meat to being a Nazi.

I stated that the Nazis were acting in a moral fashion. They truly believed in eugenics. Thus, they eliminated Jews, homosexuals, and persons with schizophrenia and autism. They believed that these short term actions were necessary for the survival of the human race.

I may not agree with the Nazi belief system. I am not going to judge the Nazis because they lived at a different time and in a different part of the world. But, it did have a certain kind of logic.

By the same token, some people argue that industrial farming is cruel and brutal. Yet, it is natures way. We are part of nature. Thus, we do brutal things to survive. They argue that this is the way of things until we have good tasting alternatives to eating meat.

I say that carnivorous eating has a sort of logic to it. But, I do not agree with it. Similarly, I am not going to judge the meat eaters.

Does anyone have any suggestions to keep me from saying stupid things?
 
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I need to think on this a bit...It’s early for me, 4:39 am and I’m really tired. I need to get up at some point and have coffee.
is it a self control thing where you are unable to just not say anything at all or that you are simply giving an opinion (which is your right) and realizing it might be offensive? If you’re speaking the truth, it may just be their issue of not wanting to hear it. I don’t know...it’s a fine line to walk when we have something to say where it might be controversial and we want to be considerate of other’s feelings.
 
I agree with your thoughts on the bull rider. but.... you should keep those kind of thoughts to yourself. They are inconsiderate and insensitive. I really don't care if the person perceived bull riding as a good thing or not. I think its apparent he didn't expect to be crippled. He is just a stupid guy doing a stupid thing and paying the consequences. We should still feel sorry for him.

The eating meat and being a Nazi is a topic that needs to be avoided. Personally I think it IS a fair comparison. But hey, if IB Singer couldn't get away with it - I'm not going to touch it.

Your other thoughts on Nazi are interesting but I believe they are flawed. I'm pretty sure that just believing something is right does not make it right. I think there are moral absolutes. However, I am aware that these thought are debatable. Many thousands of pages of philosophy and psychology have been devoted to it. But still I think its best to stay away from comparing things to Nazi. Rule #11 in debate school: first person to mention Hitler, loses.

The nature way's argument I've had before. It goes something like this.
Something is natural
Its made by man
Man is part of nature
Thus something is natural.

I'm pretty sure this is a false argument. First off, what is "natural". The definition actually excludes man made things. I think what most people mean in this argument is that something is "good". And I think that argument gets bogged down when one tries to argue that man is good.

I'm not going to advice you to stop saying stupid things. Conversations like this are great places to learn and to teach. I will recommend that you make sure the things you say are thought out or preface your remarks with something like I was thinking that maybe....

Oh. and cater your remarks to your audience.
 
I can see hog’s meaning of nature/natural as being valid during days of the caveman but not now that we know better.
ETA: perhaps in the context of survival of the fittest? But we’re supposed to be civilized/educated.
 
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This is where I get confused. We can shove 100 pigs in a the equivalent of a small apartment with no toilet for their entire lives. But, if I say that in public, that is not polite. I am sorry if the truth hurts peoples feelings.

Maybe, I should also avoid saying that cooked pork smells like pig poop. (Actually, I have never said that.)

Yet, if someone physically abused an animal and they get crippled then I am supposed to have simpathy. Bull riding is on the very edge of being a blood sport. If a person gets killed in the process, I call it a fair kill. The guy that I mentioned will probably die in a couple years. I call it a fair kill.

I would like to thank you once again Lou for your thoughtful advice. I truly appreciate it.

Is there an acid test that I can use to determine when I should SHUT UP.

I truly am sorry if my opinions offend the sensibilities of people at vegan forums. Nevertheless, I need to say these things here so that I do not say it in public.

❤️ Once again, I would appreciate a simple rule of thumb that I could use to stay out of trouble. ❤️
 
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@ KLS52

I would greatly appreciate your thought on this matter.

@ Lou

I would also greatly appreciate any additional thoughts.

=====
@ All vegan form members.

PLEASE HELP ME WALK THE NARROW ROAD OF POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.
 
As far as the bull rider goes. All you should do is acknowledge something bad happened to the guy and feel bad for him since he is suffering. Vegans are compassionate. Compassion requires you to feel bad for the guy.

That being said, if I ever find myself at a rodeo, I would be hard pressed not to root for the bull.

When we read about the poachers who got eaten by lions. ( If I remember the story right the lions ate them but it was elephants or rhinos that killed them). Most of us thought to ourselves, oh good, Karma. but had the smarts not to say it out loud. Hmm... come to think of it, I bet some vegan YouTube said something like that. it would be interesting to see if they got smacked down or not.

IB Singer actually spent time in a concentration camp When he wrote, "In relation to [animals], all people are Nazis; for the animals, it is an eternal Treblinka," he got a lot of crap about it. While I think its a perfectly valid comparison I would not admit that in mixed company. Mixed being not vegan.

PETA did a thing called Holacuast On Your Plate. It got smacked down a lot. Of course, PETA doesn't mind. They've never met a controversy they didn't like. Oh, BTW Singer was the inspiration for that display. IBS is also the inspiration of the former quote that I used in my signature: When asked if he had become a vegetarian for health reasons, he replied: "I did it for the health of the chickens."

When that YouTuber (or was it a TikToker) got in trouble for saying Animals Lives Matter, I sympathized with her. After all Animal lives do matter. However there are better, less controversial, and more sensitive ways of saying that. Even PETA realized that and put out a statement supporting BLM and warning PETA members from trying to inject animal rights into the conversation

Anyway, IMHO, you don't need to shut up. Your opinions are worth expressing. However you should try to be sensitive to others when you say such things. One idea might be to preface your remarks with something like
I don't want to be insensitive but What do you think about this idea
Have you ever considered this
I was wondering about .....

For example, Do you think that maybe those poachers who got eaten by lions got what they deserved.
Um... maybe not. :)

I doubt there is a good acid test.
But maybe two good rules could be
Stay away from Hitler and Nazis comparisons.
and never minimize or be insensitive to the pain others feel.
 
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Hog, here are my suggestions.

1. Before speaking/writing, empathise with the person who is about to read your criticism. Try to imagine it from their point of view. Bear in mind they may have other problems and this may be piling up on top.

2. Consider the emotional impact as well as the logic of the argument. You are rational and logical, but other people might be more emotional.

3. Find a trusted person and share with them the things you plan to say/already said for feedback. If you don't have a vegan friend in "real life" you can post here instead.

4. If in doubt, don't speak, especially where you will have another opportunity to present the argument later if reflecting on it.

5. Don't consider yourself completely unchangeable. You can change. not easily and quickly. But neither is a person's personality and empathy completely set in stone. You can change, if you want to that is, because maybe there's no need.
 
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Maybe I should approach the issue from a different angle.

Maybe I should say the following, “I am a pig at heart. So, eating bacon seems like cannibalism.”

If someone asks anything more, I will say, “Factory farms are horrific places to live. I am boycotting that stuff.”
 
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I have that problem, and can sympathize. I agree with what you've said, especially the bull fighting injury. It's incredible that people are ok with being happy about the injuries they cause others, but when the others cause injury to them it's all boo-hoo, how sad

I have learned to ignore these things so much that I almost instinctively paralyze myself, and just stare.
My co worker has said things so obviously racist to me, and while the first time I told her that, and exactly why it was racist. She's said random bigoted things I've called her out on, but yesterday, she said the same crap and I just stared. I was kinda upset at that, but it was probably all for the best. Oh, later I did turn her words against her in off the cuff way, i'm not certain if she got my point or not,

I've taken those quizzes "are you on the autism spectrum". I'm not social enough to be it seems. I'm not sure what I am if there is any catagory. i seem like quite the anomaly
 
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Approach it this way: Before you find yourself in anyone's presence, ask yourself your intention. If your intention is to see a friend and they are injured, are you there to force your views on them, or to offer them kindness and respect, as friends do? What is your intention in each unique situation, then go with your intention in what you decide to say.
 
Hog, here are my suggestions.

1. Before speaking/writing, empathise with the person who is about to read your criticism. Try to imagine it from their point of view. Bear in mind they may have other problems and this may be piling up on top.

2. Consider the emotional impact as well as the logic of the argument. You are rational and logical, but other people might be more emotional.

3. Find a trusted person and share with them the things you plan to say/already said for feedback. If you don't have a vegan friend in "real life" you can post here instead.

4. If in doubt, don't speak, especially where you will have another opportunity to present the argument later if reflecting on it.

5. Don't consider yourself completely unchangeable. You can change. not easily and quickly. But neither is a person's personality and empathy completely set in stone. You can change, if you want to that is, because maybe there's no need.
Highlighted what I totally agree with.
What's with everyone being sooooo nice?
Sure I'll be sympathetic with someone who's changed their mind about bullriding/hunting and has regrets, but if they get injured it truly is what they asked for 🙄
I have learned to keep my mouth shut a lot though
 
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@feather and I are birds of a ....

kindness, respect and I will go two further love and joy

I try my best to bring joy into other's lives (as well as my own) and I try to do it from a place of love and do it with kindness and respect.

eg yesterday I was driving and from the car in front of me fluttered a napkin/serviette, that makes me 'not happy' to see - I pulled up alongside them at the stop light and the person was eating a burger, and had the window down - my first impulse was an angry comment and I pulled myself back and just said "please could you try not to litter" - they said "oh sorry" - I felt good because I was polite and whether it alters their behavior or not they will think of me as polite

littering is not in the same category as animal abuse and yet we can still come from a calm and loving place

things that I think inside my head I don't always verbalize and if I recognize that the thing I am thinking is not kind or joyful then I try to change it inside there first

I love that you feel free to discuss this topic here and you should always feel safe to do so. All of us can learn from others, it is how sentient beings are recognized. Learning and growing is a life long activity.

Emma JC
Find your vegan soulmate or just a friend. www.spiritualmatchmaking.com
 
@feather and I are birds of a ....

kindness, respect and I will go two further love and joy

I try my best to bring joy into other's lives (as well as my own) and I try to do it from a place of love and do it with kindness and respect.

eg yesterday I was driving and from the car in front of me fluttered a napkin/serviette, that makes me 'not happy' to see - I pulled up alongside them at the stop light and the person was eating a burger, and had the window down - my first impulse was an angry comment and I pulled myself back and just said "please could you try not to litter" - they said "oh sorry" - I felt good because I was polite and whether it alters their behavior or not they will think of me as polite

littering is not in the same category as animal abuse and yet we can still come from a calm and loving place

things that I think inside my head I don't always verbalize and if I recognize that the thing I am thinking is not kind or joyful then I try to change it inside there first

I love that you feel free to discuss this topic here and you should always feel safe to do so. All of us can learn from others, it is how sentient beings are recognized. Learning and growing is a life long activity.

Emma JC
Find your vegan soulmate or just a friend. www.spiritualmatchmaking.com
I love this 😍
 
This is how I see it. No matter how people fall down.
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I am so politically incorrect. When supporting animals rights becomes the norm among the mindless masses, I am sure that I will say something stupid that makes me an animal hater.

My son played a politically incorrect joke on me about wanting a puppy. It took me totally by surprise.

Son: I want a puppy.
Dad: What happens when you get tired of the dog.
Son: It is okay Dad. I can kill the puppy. I will eat the meat and use the skin for leather.
Dad: (laughing) Do not say that joke in public.
Son: You never know what skin your in.
Dad: Fair enough.
Son: We need to be sensitive to cultures where eating dogs is normal. 😂

I loved the joke. But, it is between him and me.
 
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It makes sense to tell myself that I'm not responsible for how others see me.

Saying stupid things out-loud is most often just a learning experience vs keeping it all inside and trying to maintain an image/status of being smart.

On the same token it's also important not to put a label of stupid on your whole being. It could limit how far you go in the future if you see yourself as stupid all because you just said one stupid thing.

Self talk will always go further than putting value into what others think or say about you.