Abrahamic Religions and Veganism

[Urban Gardener]

Launching this thread for the broad purpose of discussing the theology of Abrahamic religions as it relates to veganism. The premise is that the Abrahamic religions generally support veganism. This is, of course, a vast topic and very much open to debate.

 

[Brian W]

Awesome. I'll need to pull together some resources, then it's all speed ahead!

 

[Lou]

New Documentary- A Prayer for Compassion. | Vegan Forum

 

[Amy SF]

Here’s something from the Jewish perspective:

Jewish Values in Action

www.jewishveg.org

Jewish Veg - Wikipedia

 

[David3]

.
Oh dear, this is a challenge! The Jewish Torah and the Old Testament include detailed instructions, commanded by Jehovah, for animal sacrifice.
.

 

[Brian W]

I posted this in the prayer for compassion thinking I was posting here.

.
Oh dear, this is a challenge! The Jewish Torah and the Old Testament include detailed instructions, commanded by Jehovah, for animal sacrifice.
.

Hosea 6:5-7

…5Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of My mouth, and My judgments go forth like lightning. 6For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.7But they, like Adam, have transgressed the covenant; there they were unfaithful to Me.…

My own belief is that the Bible is a progressive revelation of God that became better realized with the Prophets and culminated in Jesus Christ. Much of which was taught in the Mosaic Law was challenged by Jesus, but the prophets were always endorsed by him. Daniel was one such prophet and he considered it would defile him and his men to eat meat.

Daniel 1:8-16

8But Daniel made up his mind that he would not defile himself with the king’s food or wine. So he asked the chief official for permission not to defile himself.

9Now God had granted Daniel favor and compassion from the chief official, 10but he said to Daniel, “I fear my lord the king, who has assigned your food and drink. For why should he see your faces looking thinner than those of the other young men your age? You would endanger my head before the king!”

11Then Daniel said to the steward whom the chief official had appointed over Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, 12“Please test your servants for ten days. Let us be given only vegetables to eat and water to drink. 13Then compare our appearances with those of the young men who are eating the royal food, and deal with your servants according to what you see.”

14So he consented to this and tested them for ten days. 15And at the end of ten days, they looked healthier and better nourished than all the young men who were eating the king’s food. 16So the steward continued to withhold their choice food and the wine they were to drink, and he gave them vegetables instead

 

[Urban Gardener]

.
Oh dear, this is a challenge! The Jewish Torah and the Old Testament include detailed instructions, commanded by Jehovah, for animal sacrifice.
.

Here’s an interesting piece about Genesis (also posted in another thread):

Genesis 9:3 – Permission to Eat Meat?

Yes, human beings were given permission to eat meat ... as a temporary concession to our lowest instincts.

www.jewishveg.org

The animal sacrifice thing is very interesting. There was obviously a TON of it.

However, the sacrifices were spiritual acts. The animals were not killed for the primary purpose of being eaten. So I think it doesn’t count as, “eating meat.”

Instead, it is one of many practices from that time and place that we would view with disgust today. I’ve been reading the book straight through. There are countless examples of horrible things being accepted or at least tolerated. It was a really different time in history.

But we still eat. The sacrifices became symbolic and ceased to be practiced in a literal sense. However, the parts about food still hold more literal relevance because less has changed there. That’s my take on it.

 

[David3]

OK, back to the Old Testament:

Exodus 29:19-22:

"Then you shall take the other ram, and Aaron and his sons shall lay their hands on the head of the ram. "You shall slaughter the ram, and take some of its blood and put it on the lobe of Aaron's right ear and on the lobes of his sons' right ears and on the thumbs of their right hands and on the big toes of their right feet, and sprinkle the rest of the blood around on the altar. "Then you shall take some of the blood that is on the altar and some of the anointing oil, and sprinkle it on Aaron and on his garments and on his sons and on his sons' garments with him; so he and his garments shall be consecrated, as well as his sons and his sons' garments with him."
.

 

[David3]

Here, from the Old Testament of the Holy Bible, are God's instructions regarding the treatment of slaves:

Exodus 21:1-9:

"
Ordinances for the People
1“Now these are the ordinances which you are to set before them:

2“If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years; but on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without payment. 3“If he comes alone, he shall go out alone; if he is the husband of a wife, then his wife shall go out with him. 4“If his master gives him a wife, and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to her master, and he shall go out alone. 5“But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife and my children; I will not go out as a free man,’ 6then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently.

7“If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do. 8“If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of his unfairness to her. 9“If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters. 10“If he takes to himself another woman, he may not reduce her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights. 11“If he will not do these three things for her, then she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money."

"

 

[Urban Gardener]

Here, from the Old Testament of the Holy Bible, are God's instructions regarding the treatment of slaves:

Exodus 21:1-9:

"
Ordinances for the People
1“Now these are the ordinances which you are to set before them:

2“If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years; but on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without payment. 3“If he comes alone, he shall go out alone; if he is the husband of a wife, then his wife shall go out with him. 4“If his master gives him a wife, and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to her master, and he shall go out alone. 5“But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife and my children; I will not go out as a free man,’ 6then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently.

7“If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do. 8“If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of his unfairness to her. 9“If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters. 10“If he takes to himself another woman, he may not reduce her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights. 11“If he will not do these three things for her, then she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money."

"

Yeah. There’s also the part where Lot’s two daughters get him drunk and rape him. And it’s discussed like it wasn’t a terrible or unusual thing to do.

Like I said, I’ve been kind of speed-reading the whole thing. So I need to find the exact verses. But there is some crazy, crazy stuff. People are fed to lions. There are lots of concubines. And some slaves. Lots of brutal warfare.

It reads like a heavy metal song, and you wonder what all of these battles, sketchy sexual situations, and animal sacrifices have to do with beliefs we hold today. But that’s why we have the past two thousand years of scholarly interpretations of the texts. The beliefs evolved.

 

[David3]

The animal sacrifice thing is very interesting. There was obviously a TON of it.

However, the sacrifices were spiritual acts. The animals were not killed for the primary purpose of being eaten. So I think it doesn’t count as, “eating meat.”

.
But it's not really vegan, is it?
.

 

[David3]

It reads like a heavy metal song, and you wonder what all of these battles, sketchy sexual situations, and animal sacrifices have to do with beliefs we hold today. But that’s why we have the past two thousand years of scholarly interpretations of the texts. The beliefs evolved.

.
Aren't the beliefs supposed to be anchored in the texts of the Abrahamic religions (the Torah, Holy Bible, and Quran)? These texts are supposedly the accurate word of God, as revealed to the prophets Moses, Mohammad (peace be upon him), and Jesus the Christ.
.

 

[Urban Gardener]

.
But it's not really vegan, is it?
.

No. It’s safe to say that the Judaism of that era was NOT vegan.

But this is a different time, and the religions that grew out of that practice no longer involve animal sacrifice (at least the larger Abrahamic religions, the way they are commonly practiced).

 

[Urban Gardener]

.
Aren't the beliefs supposed to be anchored in the texts of the Abrahamic religions (the Torah, Holy Bible, and Quran)? These texts are supposedly the accurate word of God, as revealed to the prophets Moses, Mohammad (peace be upon him), and Jesus the Christ.
.

Yeah . . . But the word of God evolves over time. That’s also an underlying assumption.

It’s also obviously a central question that divides denominations of Christianity and Judaism - how literally should this book be taken and to what degree is it open to interpretation?

 

[Urban Gardener]

Removed Bible joke out of respect for people’s beliefs. Jokes don’t always work online.

 

[David3]

It’s interesting that with everything that was going on - slavery, concubines, sword fights, animal sacrifices, sketchy treatment of children, people being stoned to death, angels appearing, lions eating people, lions eating human corpses, dubious family situations - idolatry was the biggest problem.

I’m on Isaiah right now and that’s my summary of the book so far.

.
Don't forget to read Exodus 11:4-6, wherein God kills every non-Jewish firstborn son and animal in all of Egypt. God was avenging the terrible treatment of the Jewish people in Egypt.

It's like an over-the-top, "vengeance is mine!" movie. What do you expect? Yahweh (aka Jehovah, the Biblical god) is a old-time warrior deity: Yahweh - Wikipedia

Exodus 11:4-6
"
And Moses said, Thus saith the Lord, About midnight will I go out into the midst of Egypt:

5 And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the first born of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.

6 And there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as there was none like it, nor shall be like it any more.
"

The holiday of Passover celebrates this event. During God's over-the-top vengeance spree, he passes over the homes of the Jewish community, without harming them.
.

 

[Urban Gardener]

I believe that, taking it as a historical text, it’s a book about our transition from the hunter-gatherer way of life to the urban/agricultural one. This change occured partly or solely because we learned how to produce alcoholic beverages, and domesticated plants and animals. It’s about a society where everyone is experimenting with alcohol, new technology, and a more urban way of life.

The point is that there was chaos, people made a lot of mistakes, and God helped to guide everyone towards a new way of life with responsible use of their newfound knowledge.

And we’re still on that path today - changing for the better.

 

[Brian W]

.
Daniel didn't refuse King Nebuchadnezzar's food and wine for vegetarian reasons. Daniel refused the king's food and wine because it wasn't kosher. Daniel was Jewish. King Nebuchadnezzar was from Babylon. Plant foods aren't subject to kosher law, so Daniel chose to eat them.
.

Do we have proof of that? The king put his own people on a vegetarian diet afterwards, not a kosher omnivore diet.

 

[Brian W]

.
That's what so great about the Bible. It's got something for everyone. Sometimes gentle God, sometimes child-murdering God, kinky sex, women in bondage, eye-for-an-eye justice, turn-the-other-cheek forgiveness, ancient priests painting sacrificial animal blood on their ears and toes, and much, much more.

Yes, "two men laying together" is bad. Truly, truly bad. The Bible doesn't condemn two women laying together, however. That's why God created quasi-lesbian porn for straight men.
.

This view of the bible comes from a misunderstanding of the cultures and languages in which it is written and of the whole picture and often from second hand reports of what the bible says because you have not read it for yourself

 

[Brian W]

I am leaving VF because I am going to be getting angry about people making judgements about something they have zero knowledge of simply on the basis of not wanting to know. It's like carnivores posting their ignorant opinions in a vegan forum when they could easily just stay out of the conversation if it makes them feel uncomfortable. I cannot stay out of this because I am a Christian and it is important to me but the ignorance that is going to infiltrate the thread is too much. The only way I can stay with VF is if this thread was part of an opt-in forum that I opt out of.