White Privilege

John Scalzi looks to be a white male, no? ;)

Yeah, he mentioned that right in the article. I actually chose that article firstly because it is well presented, and secondly because it is a good example of how to discuss privilege whilst having it.

The sad thing is, because he is a straight white male, more people are likely to listen to what he has to say because he has those privileges. I can say literally the exact same thing as he did in the article and get called a whole host of gendered slurs for it, alongside being labeled as an idiot who doesn't know what she's talking about, while he gets praised for being socially aware.

This is not his fault at all. Nor is it mine. Privilege is not about blame.

Personally, I don't think there is a problem with white people talking about racism and males talking about sexism. I think it's very important for white people to speak out against racism directed at non-whites, men to speak out against sexism directed at women, straight people to speak out against anti-gay and anti-bi prejudices, cisgendered people to speak out against anti-trans prejudice and so on. For this speaking out to take place, forming one's own opinions is necessary and discussions are inevitable. I just don't think it's possible to be in "willing to speak out against racism" mode without being in "willing to discuss" racism mode. At the same time, I think it's important to recognize that we don't know what it's like to be someone that we're not and to inform ourselves by listening to the experiences of who we're not. That may be the best we can do.

I think there is a problem with it when people won't listen to those they are trying to help. There is also a greater danger of misinformation and offensive/destructive ideas when these discussions take place.

You'll notice I said "amongst themselves with any authority". This part is quite important. This doesn't mean that these discussions should never happen, but it does mean that everyone taking part in them needs to be aware that they know basically nothing on the subject because they have no authority. A vast majority of discussions on feminism I hear that take place between men wind up being sexist, even if those men have the best intentions in the world.

Even if one is talking to a woman about sexism or a black person about racism (as a white male), I don't necessarily think it's inappropriate to give one's opinion. For example, a female friend of mine once made a disparaging remark about "hating sluts" (referencing sexually promiscuous women specifically). I expressed my opinion that the double standard of "**** shaming" women but not men is sexist and that even if one were to do it to both women and men it would still not be something that I disagreed with. She got mad at me, but I don't think it was wrong of me because I want to stick up for people who are harmed by attitudes like that by challenging those views when I see them.

Even though I agree with what you said, this to me is still a form of talking over. Not all women or feminists will agree with me on this, so I only speak for myself here, but I feel like if a man wants to support women, he should call out other men and let the women deal with internalised misogyny. This doesn't have a lot of logic behind it, I know, and it might seem unfair and ridiculous. But women have been told what to think and what to do and what to say by men everywhere for our entire lives, to the point where we have absorbed these attitudes where we hate ourselves and other women. When men call women out on feminist issues, it can perpetuate that.

But as I said, not everyone will agree with me on this.

Regarding the article: I agree, being born white, male and straight are all advantageous more often than not. Going with the game analogy, "random straight, white male human" would definitely be an advantaged starting position over "random human". And there are many other variables too. The wealth of your parents, whether your parents are loving, abusive or neither, the country you're born into, the neighborhood you're born into, whether you are physically handicapped, whether you are neurotypical, how physically attractive you are, how naturally talented/charismatic/intelligent you are, what species you are and so on and so on. That is NOT to say that racism, sexism and sexuality-based prejudice aren't extremely important issues to fight against and be aware of. Just that a given individual male is not necessarily more privileged than a given individual female overall and so on (e.g. a wealthy American woman contrasted with a poverty stricken Haitian man).

Yep, that's pretty much the nature of privilege as I understand it. Not a guarantee of anything, not a statement about individuals, just an overall observation on society which needs to be acknowledged in order to 'fight the good fight'.
 
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Even though I agree with what you said, this to me is still a form of talking over. Not all women or feminists will agree with me on this, so I only speak for myself here, but I feel like if a man wants to support women, he should call out other men and let the women deal with internalised misogyny. This doesn't have a lot of logic behind it, I know, and it might seem unfair and ridiculous. But women have been told what to think and what to do and what to say by men everywhere for our entire lives, to the point where we have absorbed these attitudes where we hate ourselves and other women. When men call women out on feminist issues, it can perpetuate that.

But as I said, not everyone will agree with me on this.

I think it's sexist to say that anybody shouldn't express their opinions because of their gender, no matter what they are on or who they are talking to. I agree that you shouldn't "talk over" peoples personal experiences, but not that the situation described by cornsail constitutes that. If somebody said "my experience is..." and somebody else says "you're wrong, that's not how it is at all" then in my mind, that is talking over them, telling them that they're wrong about their own experiences. But just sharing your opinion with a woman isn't.
 
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I think it's sexist to say that anybody shouldn't express their opinions because of their gender, no matter what they are on or who they are talking to. I agree that you shouldn't "talk over" peoples personal experiences, but not that the situation described by cornsail constitutes that. If somebody said "my experience is..." and somebody else says "you're wrong, that's not how it is at all" then in my mind, that is talking over them, telling them that they're wrong about their own experiences. But just sharing your opinion with a woman isn't.

As I said, it's a point of contention amongst feminists with how involved men can be/should be within the movement itself. I hold my stance on that issue for a number of reasons, but I respect that others disagree. I think I said this in the censorship thread: to me, if you have a privilege over someone else, and you are discussing a matter directly relevant to that privilege, it is not your place to tell that person 'how things are' in relation to that. Even if you think they're really, really wrong.
 
Feminism regardless (not all women are feminists), I just don't see how men and women could have respectful, adult relationships if men couldn't express their opinions on things that relate to women, to women. If I can say "you shouldn't say that" to a man, and he can't respond with his point of view (or say the same thing back to me) how is that really equal? That's not what I aspire to, that's not what I want for women or for myself. I have lots of male friends, and I talk to them about politics/philosophy/our opinions, I'd hate to think they felt they shouldn't say things to me because they were men. I want to hear what they have to say.

But sure, I know you said you respect that others disagree, I just wanted to put my opinion across also.
 
I used to think that people who didn't see differences in how different groups of people were treated were being willfully obtuse, but with the years, I've discovered that there are a fair number of people who simply don't notice things that don't affect them directly.
 
Feminism regardless (not all women are feminists), I just don't see how men and women could have respectful, adult relationships if men couldn't express their opinions on things that relate to women, to women. If I can say "you shouldn't say that" to a man, and he can't respond with his point of view (or say the same thing back to me) how is that really equal? That's not what I aspire to, that's not what I want for women or for myself. I have lots of male friends, and I talk to them about politics/philosophy/our opinions, I'd hate to think they felt they shouldn't say things to me because they were men. I want to hear what they have to say.
I don't think that's what Aery is saying.
 
However, I'm reluctant to use the word "privilege" because in the (admittedly few) times I've heard it used in conversation, it's sometimes been used as an insult, or in a way that I don't think is really helpful. Most people you talk to wont know exactly what you mean by "... privilege" so I'd rather just explain what I mean.

I kind of do agree with that on some levels as I think that though the privilege does exist, it can definitely be used as an insult, and I dont really like that for some reason that I cant put my finger on.

But it depends on the situation, sometimes calling someone privileged is well justified, ie when the person demonstrates their lack of empathy for other groups, other times it is a person who just happens to be from a group which holds that privilege but doesnt deserve the criticism.
 
I certainly agree with the sentiment of "privilege" and I think that until people realise the advantages they're born with and to, it's going to be difficult to empathise with others and start to understand the barriers they might face that you don't (or even that there are barriers that some face that you don't).

I definitely agree with this : ) .
 
Smash the patriarchy does not mean establish the matriarchy.

Awww : ( . I am kind of looking forward to a matriarchy. I would really enjoy nurturing everyone and giving them snacks and toys and taking them out to play.
 
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Yeah, he mentioned that right in the article. I actually chose that article firstly because it is well presented, and secondly because it is a good example of how to discuss privilege whilst having it.

The sad thing is, because he is a straight white male, more people are likely to listen to what he has to say because he has those privileges. I can say literally the exact same thing as he did in the article and get called a whole host of gendered slurs for it, alongside being labeled as an idiot who doesn't know what she's talking about, while he gets praised for being socially aware.

This is not his fault at all. Nor is it mine. Privilege is not about blame.

I think there is a problem with it when people won't listen to those they are trying to help. There is also a greater danger of misinformation and offensive/destructive ideas when these discussions take place.

You'll notice I said "amongst themselves with any authority". This part is quite important. This doesn't mean that these discussions should never happen, but it does mean that everyone taking part in them needs to be aware that they know basically nothing on the subject because they have no authority. A vast majority of discussions on feminism I hear that take place between men wind up being sexist, even if those men have the best intentions in the world.

You say that John Scalzi's article is an example of an appropriate way to discuss privilege whilst having it, but the way that article comes off to me is that it's written with a tone of authority. Sort of like "okay guys, let me explain to you how it is". So I'm unclear on what you mean by "with any authority".

I also don't understand how I could have and express strong feelings against racism and attempt to work against if I felt that I knew basically nothing about it. I believe that anyone of any race can learn a lot about racism. Just not everything.
 
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Smash the patriarchy does not mean establish the matriarchy.

Indeed it may not.

Ostensible (as in; "appearing as such") attempts are a completely different thing to actual attempts though.

Awww : ( . I am kind of looking forward to a matriarchy. I would really enjoy nurturing everyone and giving them snacks and toys and taking them out to play.

If us blokes agree go out to work to fund such lady-fun can we still pretend we have a patriarchy, please?
 
The term “white privilege” is thrown around quite a bit here. It’s used as a blanket statement to describe all whites and it’s almost assumed to be natural law, like gravity.

As with every issue involving people on Earth, gravity has a part to play in racial dynamics. In fact, all the different races of the Earth wouldn't exist if it weren't for gravity, as well as every other living being and also the entire Universe!

With so many fun things like gravity, I have to wonder why we're discussing white privilege again when everything that can be said about white privilege, and indeed most other kinds of privilege, has already been said, and some people just haven't been paying attention very well.
 
If us blokes agree go out to work to fund such lady-fun can we still pretend we have a patriarchy, please?

Thank you for accurately illustrating some of the things that gravity does to matter after about thirteen billion years of cosmic evolution. The most obvious of the concepts being illustrated with the above sentence is a concept that has been discussed in this very thread! It is referred to as "male privilege." One of the things that demonstrates the influence of this "male privilege" on the above sentence is its treatment of women, and traditionally feminine activities, as being "less than" or "silly." This is most prominently indicated by the hyphenated word "lady-fun." Another way "male privilege" is shown in the above sentence comes from the expressed notion that Earthly society does not trend toward patriarchy.

Earthly society, or rather human society (if you consider the gatherings and activities of other Earthlings to be societies), tends toward patriarchy in part - if not mostly - due to the effects of gravity, one of the four fundamental forces - "interactions," if you prefer - that govern the known Universe.
 
I have to wonder why we're discussing white privilege again when everything that can be said about white privilege, and indeed most other kinds of privilege, has already been said, and some people just haven't been paying attention very well.

Counterpoint: I contend that no one has ever said "white privilege is a smelly freeze-dried potato frisbee artichoke".

Now you go.
 
It's interesting that some people are in favor of ending the oppression of animals, but not in favor of ending the oppression of women. But this is off-topic, so probably we should start a new thread where some can argue that women do not deserve to be treated with respect and dignity, but cows, pigs and chickens should.
 
It's interesting that some people are in favor of ending the oppression of animals, but not in favor of ending the oppression of women.

I don't find the idea that ending animal oppression and ending human oppressions may require different methodologies to be anything other than common sense.

That being simply because it requires a cataclysmic (sp?) abandonment of common sense to argue that animals and humans don't have significant differences.

The interesting thing is the apparent perception that not addressing animal and human oppression identicaly proves a lack of commitment to ending either one or the other.
 
The interesting thing is the apparent perception that not addressing animal and human oppression identicaly proves a lack of commitment to ending either one or the other.

Exactly where does anyone suggest that ending the oppression of animals and humans (both two subsets of matter that came to their present form due to the force of gravity, although the first contains the second) requires an identical effort for each? It's simply common sense that someone devoted to ending oppression would view any form of oppression as just as much of a threat as any other, Mr. Clueless.
 
The difference twix human to human dynamics and human to animal dynamics appears to be causing confusion.

Qualifiers like 'may', 'apparent'/'appears', 'percieved', etc also seem to be failing to help people spot the difference between debatables and absolute statements.