White Privilege

beancounter

The Fire That Burns Within
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The term “white privilege” is thrown around quite a bit here. It’s used as a blanket statement to describe all whites and it’s almost assumed to be natural law, like gravity. Some have stated that not seeing white privilege is proof that the person is privileged.

I’ve attached a Wikipedia article that discusses it, and I agree with the argument against it. The term ignores sub groups of whites, and that privilege is more about economic class than race. Here’s the text of that section:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege

“The notion of white privilege raises the question of the difference between rights and privileges. Lewis Gordon rejects the idea of white privilege, arguing that the privileges from which whites as a group are supposed to benefit are, in fact, social goods to which all people aspire. As such, he writes, they are not privileges:
"A privilege is something that not everyone needs, but a right is the opposite. Given this distinction, an insidious dimension of the white-privilege argument emerges. It requires condemning whites for possessing, in the concrete, features of contemporary life that should be available to all, and if this is correct, how can whites be expected to give up such things? Yes, there is the case of the reality of whites being the majority population in all the sites of actual privilege from prestigious universities to golf clubs and boards of directors for most high-powered corporations. But even among whites as a group, how many whites have those opportunities?"[27]
Viewing whites as universally privileged constructs "a reality that has nothing to do with [the] lived experience" of the majority of whites, who themselves do not have access to elite institutions.[27] Their "daily, means-to-means subsistence" is a right, of which it makes no sense to feel guilty.[27] Naomi Zack similarly criticizes the term white privilege as a misunderstanding of the difference between privileges and rights. Discrimination against nonwhites does not create a privilege in the normal sense of the term, a "specifically granted absolute advantage," a "prerogative or exception granted to an individual or special group."[28] In the United States, Zack writes, discussion of "white privilege" distracts from the discussion of social exclusion of nonwhites, which is the origin of racial disparities.[28]”

So if you believe it exists, what should be done about it? Education? From what perspective? Or is it just an attempt at institutionalized guilt? Reparations? How much, and for how long? How would you measure/assess how much is enough? How will you measure if it’s been eliminated?

I’m just putting a few ideas out there, but feel free to add any perspective.
 
Being a white person does not guarantee you a good and easy life. However in many countries it does give you an immunity to racial harassment and racial profiling by airport staff/police/security guards. Also it means you are less likely to be subjected to racial harassment in your place of employment. And a lot of stuff I havent even mentioned. So while it doesnt guarantee an easy life, it sure does remove a lot of problems you would come across if you lived as a non white person in a Western country.
 
Not all whites are privileged.

However, in the U.S. at least, IMO and IME, at every income and education level a white person tends to have an advantage over a black person.

That's what white privilege refers to.
 
That wasn't an empty post. We've gone 'round before over what privilege is, and you just don't see it. There's a point where it becomes plain rediculous - hitting the same points over and over again. Hence the "oh dear lord".

EXAMPLE OF PRIVILEGE: Expecting people to educate you about your privilege/their oppression. We are not your walking 101 class.

Lucky for you, I know of several privilege 101 resources (some from a race standpoint, some from a gender standpoint). Perfect opportunity to educate yourself!

http://www.feminish.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/privilege101.pdf
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/03/11/faq-what-is-male-privilege/
http://privilege101.tumblr.com/
http://www.shakesville.com/2011/03/feminism-101-situational-and-relative.html

And then a post published just today about denying oppression: http://www.shakesville.com/2013/08/occams-big-paisley-tie.html
 
So if you believe it exists, what should be done about it?

White people should be aware of their privilege whilst working to end white supremacy and racism. All the privileges work this way. If you're a dude, you should be aware of your privilege whilst helping to smash the patriarchy, for another example.
 
As I said in the censorship thread, I think white people discussing racism amongst themselves with any authority is sketchy at best and downright offensive at worst. But I have both privileges (like being white) and oppressions (like being female), so I at least feel comfortable talking about privilege in a general sense.

That being said, this article sums up privilege nicely: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

If you don't feel like reading it, it basically says that being born with any kind of privilege doesn't guarantee you an easy life, and being born with oppression doesn't guarantee you a hard one, but it certainly skews things a bit.
 
MOD POST:

The debate rules and etiquette are new, so maybe they're still not wholly clear. To clarify, the debate forum is for debate, and posts need to contribute to that. Any post that is just expressing emotion/venting or agreement ("WTF?! That's stupid" "Argh!" "That's just ridiculous!" "I agree" "+1" etc) without putting forward argument or explanation is against the forum etiquette. This isn't a place to rant. The reason for this is because we want this forum to be for debating, not arguing. We want to hear peoples opinions, because opinions contribute to and allow people to debate.
 
The line of argument appears to be that white>male>straight is free of either negative or positive discriminations (discrimination neutral) and that constitutes 'priveledge'.

That would mean that applying either positive or negative discrimination(s) to any group denies that group the white>male>straight 'priveledge' of discrimination neutrality, though.

It reveals enough to write a whole book on when people are so desperate to prevent the 'priveledge' of neutral discrimination falling upon themselves.

We get into the realm of tomes when people are so desperate to prevent the 'priveledge' of neutral discrimination falling upon groups that they themselves are excluded from.
 
No, that is not the argument at all, if you read some of the posts that have already being made. People are saying that life isnt easy for anyone, but being parts of some groups which have more power (ie, being white, male, thin, hetero, able, cisgender, or being of a higher wealth or more upwardly mobile social class) can all in their turn result in power imbalances which skew things in your favour.

It is something that is not obvious to people who have that privilege, ie physically able people cannot know how difficult it is to get around in a wheelchair, males cannot know how hard it is to have to deal with the kind of sexual harassment women have to put up with often, and so on for all the types of privilege. It is ridiculous to say that some people in society do not have advantages over others.
 
MOD POST:

The debate rules and etiquette are new, so maybe they're still not wholly clear. To clarify, the debate forum is for debate, and posts need to contribute to that. Any post that is just expressing emotion/venting or agreement ("WTF?! That's stupid" "Argh!" "That's just ridiculous!" "I agree" "+1" etc) without putting forward argument or explanation is against the forum etiquette. This isn't a place to rant. The reason for this is because we want this forum to be for debating, not arguing. We want to hear peoples opinions, because opinions contribute to and allow people to debate.
Not at all on topic, BUT!

The standard of moderation on this forum is the best I've ever seen.
 
No, that is not the argument at all, if you read some of the posts that have already being made. People are saying that life isnt easy for anyone, but being parts of some groups which have more power (ie, being white, male, thin, hetero, able, cisgender, or being of a higher wealth or more upwardly mobile social class) can all in their turn result in power imbalances which skew things in your favour.

It is something that is not obvious to people who have that privilege, ie physically able people cannot know how difficult it is to get around in a wheelchair, males cannot know how hard it is to have to deal with the kind of sexual harassment women have to put up with often, and so on for all the types of privilege. It is ridiculous to say that some people in society do not have advantages over others.
Freesia,

By your own logic; Some things about being "white, male, thin, hetero, able, cisgender, or being of a higher wealth or more upwardly mobile social class" may not be obvious to people who do not have those 'priveledges'.

Iis it not blatantly hypocritical/egotistical when we claim to fully understand other peoples experiences but that they cannot fully understand ours?
 
White people should be aware of their privilege whilst working to end white supremacy and racism. All the privileges work this way. If you're a dude, you should be aware of your privilege whilst helping to smash the patriarchy, for another example.

Spang ...

Would you agree (hypotheticaly) that austensible attempts to establish a matriarchy are not an incentive for males to help out in smashing the patriarchy?

Primary point in mind being this; It is one thing to ask someone to remove the boot and destroy it. Quite another to ask someone to hand the boot over to someone who appears to have a greivance with them.

Secondary point in mind: Would it not be ironic if it turns out that the boot has nothing to do with it. That it is actualy about, boot or no boot, who has the biggest foot.

Tertiary point in mind; No one with any brains ever fought for the 'priveledge' of wearing steel toe caps when I worked in the factories. Quite the reverse. (That one is highly tenuous, mind!)
 
That being said, this article sums up privilege nicely: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

If you don't feel like reading it, it basically says that being born with any kind of privilege doesn't guarantee you an easy life, and being born with oppression doesn't guarantee you a hard one, but it certainly skews things a bit.

I think this article was really good, and the metaphor works well to explain how privilege doesn't mean you're always going to be more successful/etc. I certainly agree with the sentiment of "privilege" and I think that until people realise the advantages they're born with and to, it's going to be difficult to empathise with others and start to understand the barriers they might face that you don't (or even that there are barriers that some face that you don't).

However, I'm reluctant to use the word "privilege" because in the (admittedly few) times I've heard it used in conversation, it's sometimes been used as an insult, or in a way that I don't think is really helpful. Most people you talk to wont know exactly what you mean by "... privilege" so I'd rather just explain what I mean.
 
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I embrace my privilege. I can not say I'd be as successful as I am or that my children would be as successful as they are had we grown up in another family situation. I don't see these advantages as a bad thing nor that because I have them it means I'm taking away from someone else. The world would be a better place if people weren't held back because of race, economic and family situations. I thank my lucky stars I didn't face those challenges.
 
As I said in the censorship thread, I think white people discussing racism amongst themselves with any authority is sketchy at best and downright offensive at worst. But I have both privileges (like being white) and oppressions (like being female), so I at least feel comfortable talking about privilege in a general sense.

That being said, this article sums up privilege nicely: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

If you don't feel like reading it, it basically says that being born with any kind of privilege doesn't guarantee you an easy life, and being born with oppression doesn't guarantee you a hard one, but it certainly skews things a bit.

John Scalzi looks to be a white male, no? ;)

Personally, I don't think there is a problem with white people talking about racism and males talking about sexism. I think it's very important for white people to speak out against racism directed at non-whites, men to speak out against sexism directed at women, straight people to speak out against anti-gay and anti-bi prejudices, cisgendered people to speak out against anti-trans prejudice and so on. For this speaking out to take place, forming one's own opinions is necessary and discussions are inevitable. I just don't think it's possible to be in "willing to speak out against racism" mode without being in "willing to discuss" racism mode. At the same time, I think it's important to recognize that we don't know what it's like to be someone that we're not and to inform ourselves by listening to the experiences of who we're not. That may be the best we can do.

Even if one is talking to a woman about sexism or a black person about racism (as a white male), I don't necessarily think it's inappropriate to give one's opinion. For example, a female friend of mine once made a disparaging remark about "hating sluts" (referencing sexually promiscuous women specifically). I expressed my opinion that the double standard of "**** shaming" women but not men is sexist and that even if one were to do it to both women and men it would still not be something that I disagreed with. She got mad at me, but I don't think it was wrong of me because I want to stick up for people who are harmed by attitudes like that by challenging those views when I see them.

Regarding the article: I agree, being born white, male and straight are all advantageous more often than not. Going with the game analogy, "random straight, white male human" would definitely be an advantaged starting position over "random human". And there are many other variables too. The wealth of your parents, whether your parents are loving, abusive or neither, the country you're born into, the neighborhood you're born into, whether you are physically handicapped, whether you are neurotypical, how physically attractive you are, how naturally talented/charismatic/intelligent you are, what species you are and so on and so on. That is NOT to say that racism, sexism and sexuality-based prejudice aren't extremely important issues to fight against and be aware of. Just that a given individual male is not necessarily more privileged than a given individual female overall and so on (e.g. a wealthy American woman contrasted with a poverty stricken Haitian man).

I hope I don't sound like I'm being condescending or "talking over" or speaking as if I'm an authority on the subject or anything. I'm definitely not an authority. I also don't mean to imply that the things I'm writing are things that anyone in particular does or doesn't agree with.