Veganism kills animals too

[1956]

I think in the US many dairies feed dairy cattle on grains because it's so cold so they house them indoors and intensive indoor systems are more common. But here in Australia our dairy cattle are typically grazed on open pasture and are rarely heavily grain-fed. I don't know what it might be like where Tom lives though. My point is more that taking a "least harm" approach doesn't necessarily demand not consuming animal products, whereas veganism does in almost all cases because it isn't dependant upon the degree of harm or cruelty etc.

Of course you can just say veganism is about never consuming or using animal products and that's fine - it's simple and clear. But that's not very compelling (why can't I eat an animal product? Because veganism says you can't), so there's no obvious reason to act that way.

Yep, your first sentence of your second paragraph is What it means to be Vegan…
The reason To act that way is out of Compassion - which Is what Veganism is All about.
The open pasture that the dairy cattle are grazing on - does it grow Naturally in the Australian climate? Are the fields tilled to sow the grass?
What was the land like before it was used for grazing cattle? Were trees felled? Were native habits destroyed?
No, you will Never convince Me that Veganism is not the Best way to Do the Least Harm.
And there is No need for humans to drink dairy milk.

 

[Tom L.]

Why? Even the case I mention there still can lead to least harm, if that's what you are chasing. The number of male calves that are on-sold from a typical high-welfare dairy farm would not be very many - averaged across the production it would be quite small per liter of milk sold to consumers (just fractions of an animal). I doubt that would exceed the numbers of animals killed to grow oats or soy. I also said that can happen, because there is nothing stopping an ethical dairy farm using sexed semem AI to lower the proportion of male calves born to avoid the risk of such outcomes.

Here is an example in Australia, not far from me, that uses AI to prevent the male calf problem.

FAQ | How Now Dairy

Everything you should know about How Now Dairy and Ethical Organic Milk. Australian Organic Certified. We keep our calves with mums, no separation, no slaughter.

hownowdairy.com.au

Here's one whose milk actually was available locally for a while (I don't think it is now as demand was not high enough) which apparently follows Ahimsa to be completely slaughter-free. Interestingly they claim not to use AI, so I'm not sure how they manage herd size over time. Either they are lying, or they are willing to support herd growth.

Mother Cow Dairy – Cruelty Free Milk – Slaughter Free Milk – Ethical milk

www.mothercowdairy.com.au

What I am getting at is that if "least harm" is your only concern, I think you can find genuine dairy milk that is at least only as harmful as plant-sourced milk or even better. It isn't least harm that drives vegan opposition to dairy; it's rejecting the chattel property status and unfair use of the cows, regardless of the rates of harm they experience. Of course you are free to choose plant-based milk; my point is that I can't see you have a compelling reason to do so. Vegan principles do, if you agree with them.

(your post mostly quoted- but not completely) This is interesting. As far as male calves go... I also would be okay for them to be neutered (as is done with almost all pet dogs and cats) to make them less dangerous to those caring for them, and so they might be able to help run the farm by assisting in plowing crops. However... I still have misgivings about this working. You mentioned that Mother Cow Dairy might be out of business because demand for their product was lacking. I'm thinking that this sort of operation- while ethically acceptable by my standards- has to charge a MUCH higher price for their milk- because they have to provide lifetime care for the non-productive individuals. They'll have a hard time competing with dairy operations which have no qualms about "culling" their herds every now and then.

ETA: I think my reply to you this past Saturday at 11:45 AM was snippier than I meant it to be.

 

[Graeme M]

You mentioned that Mother Cow Dairy might be out of business because demand for their product was lacking.

I don't think they have gone out of business, just contracted slightly. They are located in Victoria, about 600km from where I am. They appear to distribute through Victoria, mainly around its capital city Melbourne, but I think they wanted to expand and Canberra (the national capital) was an obvious choice. We did buy some at the time (about 8 years ago) when we were experimenting with foods and yes, they did charge a higher price but no more expensive than soy milk per litre.

You are right that it might be harder for them to compete, but there are many such smaller and more ethical operations in all forms of food production who charge more but deliver a higher standard of care. Enough people seem prepared to pay the price premium for the better care. These consumers must be very close to vegan ideals but just don't want to make the jump to veganism for whatever reasons.

Another example is an ethical sheep and egg operation quite close to where my farmer friend lives - they produce meat and eggs but have very high standards of care and work diligently at landscape restoration and environmental stewardship. Other than killing their animals to produce food, they seem to deliver a very high quality service and they are never short of custom. But they do charge higher prices.

Anyway, my point is that as far as dairy goes, I'm not seeing a significantly greater scale of harm associated with those examples I offered than would be the case for drinking a plant-sourced milk. Veganism objects because those cows are property, and are being used unfairly because we can do something different.