Vegan vs. Vegetarian: More Differences Than Similarities? ft Gary Yourofsky

[Bite Size Vegan]

what is the difference between veganism and vegetarianism? is vegetarianism really a healthy, animal-friendly and moral way of living? join gary yourofsky and me for a closer look at the critical differences between these two ways of life.

Blog Post With Additional Health Resources: Vegan Vs. Vegetarian | Bite Size Vegan

Videos for Moral Resources:
What You Support When You Choose Vegetarianism: Is Eating Animals A Personal Choice? - YouTube
The Myth of Humane, Free-Range & Cage-Free: Is Free-Range Really Free? Are Eggs and Dairy Humane? (Graphic) - YouTube
The Truth About Honey: Is Honey Vegan? Healthy? Humane? - YouTube
The Truth About Wool: Is Wool Vegan? Humane? - YouTube

 

[beancounter]

We try to avoid vegetarian vs. vegan arguments here, as we want all types of veg*ns to feel welcome.

what is the difference between veganism and vegetarianism? is vegetarianism really a healthy, animal-friendly and moral way of living? join gary yourofsky and me for a closer look at the critical differences between these two ways of life.

 

[Second Summer]

I've moved this thread to the vegan forum for now.

 

[Bite Size Vegan]

We try to avoid vegetarian vs. vegan arguments here, as we want all types of veg*ns to feel welcome.

ah okay. thank you

I've moved this thread to the vegan forum for now.

thanks for the notice.

 

[Second Summer]

"Vegetarianism is crueler than meat-eating." The typical meat-eater also eats eggs, honey, dairy cheese, drinks dairy milk, wears leather. It's true that many vegetarians eat a lot of dairy cheese. I'm not sure how to measure the cruelty necessary for feeding a typical vegetarian and a typical meat eater, and then to compare the two, though. What does that math look like?

"Vegetarians wear leather, silk, and wool." Some do, some don't. I would assume those vegetarians who are motivated by compassion towards animals would attempt to avoid these products. I know I did, back in the day.

I realize there is a limit to how much info can be put into a 5-minute video, but the thing is, vegetarians are a more heterogeneous group than you give them credit for here.

I also think a lot of the people who are currently vegetarian could have been vegan if society was more accommodating and accepting. Being / becoming vegan is unfortunately not nearly as easy for everyone as we would like it to be, or as easy as PETA and some other advocates portray it. Some people try and fail. A lot of the failed vegans go back to meat eating. Some go back to a flavour of vegetarianism. AFAIK the percentage of the population who are vegetarians & vegans has not increased much over the last decades, even though we know a lot of people try going vegan or vegetarian. That seems to indicate that there is a steady stream of failed veg*ns who revert to omnivorism. Which again is evidence that it's hard for people to stick with it. Even vegetarianism, apparently. Which again is part of the motivation for boards like VV.

 

[Bite Size Vegan]

"Vegetarianism is crueler than meat-eating." The typical meat-eater also eats eggs, honey, dairy cheese, drinks dairy milk, wears leather. It's true that many vegetarians eat a lot of dairy cheese. I'm not sure how to measure the cruelty necessary for feeding a typical vegetarian and a typical meat eater, and then to compare the two, though. What does that math look like?

by this i meant eating meat and NO dairy and eggs is less cruel than eating dairy and eggs but NO meat- not eating all of them... still, comparing levels of cruelty is not ideal.

"Vegetarians wear leather, silk, and wool." Some do, some don't. I would assume those vegetarians who are motivated by compassion towards animals would attempt to avoid these products. I know I did, back in the day.

exactly why i put the note on the screen that it varies by individual

I realize there is a limit to how much info can be put into a 5-minute video, but the thing is, vegetarians are a more heterogeneous group than you give them credit for here.

very much agreed- i was commenting on the most widely accepted understanding, which of course does not apply to everyone.

I also think a lot of the people who are currently vegetarian could have been vegan if society was more accommodating and accepting. Being / becoming vegan is unfortunately not nearly as easy for everyone as we would like it to be, or as easy as PETA and some other advocates portray it. Some people try and fail. A lot of the failed vegans go back to meat eating. Some go back to a flavour of vegetarianism. AFAIK the percentage of the population who are vegetarians & vegans has not increased much over the last decades, even though we know a lot of people try going vegan or vegetarian. That seems to indicate that there is a steady stream of failed veg*ns who revert to omnivorism. Which again is evidence that it's hard for people to stick with it. Even vegetarianism, apparently. Which again is part of the motivation for boards like VV

much agreed.

 

[PTree15]

I think a lot of the difficulty may also stem from the initial motivation. Not to stereotype, but a lot of vegans who are motivated by health only, for example, don't always seem to have the stomach for long-term success. I also think they get bored with whatever they're eating because perhaps they don't venture from familiar veganized omni dishes. I can't tell you how many new meals/foods I have tried because I went vegan...foods I never would have dreamed of trying as an omni or even a vegetarian. (It also helps if you like to cook.)

I was vegetarian for years and still was for a while even after I learned about the horrors of the egg and dairy industries. I will admit that my selfish desire for taste and comfort at the time outweighed what I knew in my soul was wrong. When I came to terms with the guilt, I stopped eating dairy on the spot. Granted, it took a while to get to that point. I just couldn't live with the guilt anymore. I honestly can't imagine ever touching an egg or a piece of cheese again, let alone meat. Just thinking about what those animals endure makes me so sad. I have no interest in ever contributing to their suffering again. Getting people to equate a cow, chicken or a pig with a pet dog or cat is the tricky part. Societal resistance to tradition/change (not to mention the economics/power of the meat, egg and dairy industries) is also a big obstacle. There are still so many people who think the animals are on this earth for human consumption.

 

[flyingsnail]

One problem with comparing vegetarians to vegans it that vegetarians are far more heterogeneous. Veganism is strict and narrow compared to vegetarianism, something as small as disagreeing about honey or insect derived ingredients gets you kicked out of the vegan club, while the vegetarian club includes people that routinely eat dairy and eggs (lacto-ovo-vegetarian) to people that may never eat them (strict vegetarian).

As for the points in the video:

Unnatural/Health: Calling dairy, eggs and honey unnatural while eating the products of modern agricultural seems, to me, backwards. The consumption of eggs and honey by human ancestors predates plant agriculture and dairy was included in the human diet before most of the plants we eat today were cultivated. The saturated fat in dairy and the cholesterol in eggs are a health issue, but one can avoid them by consuming low-fat dairy and egg whites. The consumption of low-fat dairy and egg whites hasn't been consistently associated with disease. Honey is no worse than other sugars.

Ethics/Suffering: What occurs on modern factory farms can't be used as an objection to all dairy and egg consumption. Dairy production doesn't necessitate veal production, hens can be kept humanely, and so on. This is another case where trying to treat vegetarians as a homogeneous group doesn't work, some will only eat eggs from their hens, some will only buy dairy from local farms that aren't involved with veal, etc. In terms of animal suffering, everyone contributes to it, so its a question of what lifestyle factors reduce it the most. The lifestyle factors that make one vegan aren't the only ones that matter, as such, its possible that a vegetarian that eats dairy and eggs occasionally but has other positive lifestyle factors may have a lower suffering footprint than a vegan that lives lavishly.

 

[flyingsnail]

by this i meant eating meat and NO dairy and eggs is less cruel than eating dairy and eggs but NO meat- not eating all of them...

Why would that be the case? Per the amount the animal is alive, dairy and eggs produce more food so they would result in less, not more, suffering. Also dairy and egg laying hens, especially the cows, tend to be better treated than cows or chickens raised for meat.

 

[ledboots]

Why would that be the case? Per the amount the animal is alive, dairy and eggs produce more food so they would result in less, not more, suffering. Also dairy and egg laying hens, especially the cows, tend to be better treated than cows or chickens raised for meat.

Except for the chicks that are unfortunate enough to be born male, and are thus tossed live into the grinder at hatching, and the fact that dairy cows are foreceably impregnated and then at the birth immediately have the calves taken from them. The calf and the cow bellow and cry, looking for one another. And after many of these cycles taking place, she ages and produces less milk, so they sell her to the slaughterhouse.

And due to many places having no regulations for cruelty to chickens, backyard egg producers are sometimes in horrible conditions with no recourse.

 

[Clueless Git]

Being / becoming vegan is unfortunately not nearly as easy for everyone as we would like it to be, or as easy as PETA and some other advocates portray it. Some people try and fail. A lot of the failed vegans go back to meat eating. Some go back to a flavour of vegetarianism. AFAIK the percentage of the population who are vegetarians & vegans has not increased much over the last decades, even though we know a lot of people try going vegan or vegetarian. That seems to indicate that there is a steady stream of failed veg*ns who revert to omnivorism. Which again is evidence that it's hard for people to stick with it. Even vegetarianism, apparently. Which again is part of the motivation for boards like VV.

It's the same problem in play in all instances, IS.

The predominance of meat in the general food supply makes it hard to be vegetarian.

The additional predominance of dairy makes it even harder to be vegan.

Omni's who want to go veggie cry "too hard!" because of a problem that would cease to exist if .

Vegetarians who want to be vegan cry "too hard!" because of an additional problem caused soley by vegetarians.

Crying "too hard for me so I'll stick to making it harder for others", being part of the problem rather than being part of the cure because it's easier, warrants no respect and little sympathy.

 

[ledboots]

Zip

 

[Scorpius]

Getting people to equate a cow, chicken or a pig with a pet dog or cat is the tricky part.

I DON'T GET THIS. I work in an industry surrounded by so-called 'animal lovers' with very few veg*ns to be found. For me, I made the cat/dog-pig/cow/chicken connection very early on in my career in veterinary medicine.

 

[Bite Size Vegan]

Crying "too hard for me so I'll stick to making it harder for others", being part of the problem rather than being part of the cure because it's easier, warrants no respect and little sympathy.

preach it!

I DON'T GET THIS. I work in an industry surrounded by so-called 'animal lovers' with very few veg*ns to be found. For me, I made the cat/dog-pig/cow/chicken connection very early on in my career in veterinary medicine.

i don't get it either- "When it comes to having a central nervous system, and the ability to feel pain, hunger, and thirst, a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy." -Ingrid Newkirk

 

[Clueless Git]

I DON'T GET THIS.

At certain stages of development a subtle change in the appearance of something you know very well can make it miraculously disappear ...

 

[Clueless Git]

preach it!

I would! I would!

But it's an inconvenient truth, so ...

NOT ALLOWED! NOT ALLOWED!

 

[Scorpius]

Damn cognitive dissonance.

 

[PTree15]

I DON'T GET THIS. I work in an industry surrounded by so-called 'animal lovers' with very few veg*ns to be found. For me, I made the cat/dog-pig/cow/chicken connection very early on in my career in veterinary medicine.

Me, either, Scorpius. I have friends who do tons of animal rescue, and it's great what they are doing. But man, they have a completely different view of a cow or a pig or a chicken.

 

[Bite Size Vegan]

I would! I would!

But it's an inconvenient truth, so ...

NOT ALLOWED! NOT ALLOWED!

you're tellin' me- this thread was originally in the vegetarian forum

 

[flyingsnail]

Except for the chicks that are unfortunate enough to be born male, and are thus tossed live into the grinder at hatching, and the fact that dairy cows are foreceably impregnated and then at the birth immediately have the calves taken from them.

You're talking about what occurs on modern factory farms...my point was that this is not the only way to obtain eggs and dairy. As such what occurs on factory farms cannot be an argument against the use of dairy and eggs in general and there are many vegetarians that don't agree with what occurs on factory farms.

The fact that someone is "vegetarian" doesn't tell you much about what they think about animal welfare and animal rights which is why trying to compare vegetarians and vegans is, I think, pretty worthless.