Making Compromise in the Vegan Lifestyle?

[LukethePrettyGood]

I got a haircut today and they always try to use styling products so they can sell me a bottle at checkout. I usually decline but figured what the hell...as soon as she starts working the beard oil in tells me how great the collagen is for my skin can't let your vegan guard down for a second in this world!

I almost let out a horrified 'lol!'
This reminds me of the time I asked my barber if I could read the shampoo bottle first, or the confused look on my servers face, when I asked her 'if the French fries were vegan!'

 

[permabulk]

I'm appalled at the advice other people have given you in this thread. The best comment I've seen here is that you wait and see whether your nose bothers you as much later on. If it does continue to bother you, perhaps the money you have for the cosmetic procedure can be put towards counseling instead. People have learned to live with physical disfiguration far beyond what you have described. You sound as if you need some mental fortitude.

My attitude towards the vegan community is that we are best off (meaning, animals are best served) if we offer each other the strength to stick to veganism when possible. People who are determined to do non-vegan things can do so without being comforted and encouraged and having their behavior condoned. The first priority is animal welfare.

I suggest you think hard about whether the appearance of the tip of your nose is more important to you than your vegan principles. Might you regret this procedure in the future? People often come to care less about physical appearance as they gain life experience. Are you considering this primarily for yourself or are you mainly worried about how others will react to your appearance?

Don't forget that we as vegans exist as models for other people who might become vegans, both in real life and on the Internet, because anyone can read this forum. Do we really want to communicate that purchasing animal products for minor cosmetic procedures is acceptable? If people were murdering innocent humans, would you buy some of the body parts to alter your nose? These are all rhetorical questions for your consideration.

Legitimate "compromises" in the vegan lifestyle are for emergencies, health issues, potentially losing your job, etc: things that will truly upend or destroy one's life. We avoid animal products as best as we can, not only when it's psychologically easy, and we don't stop just for plastic surgery.

 

[Sax]

I'm appalled at the advice other people have given you in this thread. The best comment I've seen here is that you wait and see whether your nose bothers you as much later on.

I appreciate the principled stance. And honestly this is a new one for me and I suspect others here so maybe our initial take is worth reconsidering.

I agree a wait and see approach would be good. It'd be cool if the OP came to see it as a reminder of their commitment and therefore something to be proud of.

I think a consequentialist take gives room for flexibility. Is an animal that otherwise wouldn't have been harmed going to be harmed for this? No. Maybe the company performing the collagen extraction will net a pocket change level of profit more than it otherwise would. While on the other hand the OP seems to believe this will result in a meaningful impact on their quality of life.

So when should principles/deontology over ride consequentialism? The smartest philosophers in history could debate that forever. As regular people just trying to live a life all we can do is educate ourselves on the unpleasant details, make an honest effort to feel that moral weight, and then trust our moral intuition for better or worse.

I especially appreciate what you said about offering each other strength to stick to veganism. I think that needs to be modeled far more often, in a way that doesn't come off as judgemental or more-vegan-than-thou. The internet tho...

 

[LukethePrettyGood]

I'm appalled at the advice other people have given you in this thread. The best comment I've seen here is that you wait and see whether your nose bothers you as much later on. If it does continue to bother you, perhaps the money you have for the cosmetic procedure can be put towards counseling instead. People have learned to live with physical disfiguration far beyond what you have described. You sound as if you need some mental fortitude.

My attitude towards the vegan community is that we are best off (meaning, animals are best served) if we offer each other the strength to stick to veganism when possible. People who are determined to do non-vegan things can do so without being comforted and encouraged and having their behavior condoned. The first priority is animal welfare.

I suggest you think hard about whether the appearance of the tip of your nose is more important to you than your vegan principles. Might you regret this procedure in the future? People often come to care less about physical appearance as they gain life experience. Are you considering this primarily for yourself or are you mainly worried about how others will react to your appearance?

Don't forget that we as vegans exist as models for other people who might become vegans, both in real life and on the Internet, because anyone can read this forum. Do we really want to communicate that purchasing animal products for minor cosmetic procedures is acceptable? If people were murdering innocent humans, would you buy some of the body parts to alter your nose? These are all rhetorical questions for your consideration.

Legitimate "compromises" in the vegan lifestyle are for emergencies, health issues, potentially losing your job, etc: things that will truly upend or destroy one's life. We avoid animal products as best as we can, not only when it's psychologically easy, and we don't stop just for plastic surgery.

Yes, my nose bothers me, I don't need mental fortitude, no, my actions will not cause a single other animal to die, yes, we must weigh our ethics. In fact, I think that is a good lesson to all, that we must do everything in our power to prevent suffering, but we must always put ourselves first while we strive to do 'even better.' There are different kinds of vegans, with different reasons.

My vegan ethical morals (I have some) tell me to do nothing to contribute to another death, or harm of an animal. It does not say anything about taking care of my future and weird appearance, or that it's wrong to help somebody, utilizing material from an animal. In fact, while so many are eating meat and animals are being killed, what makes sense is to use every part. To answer your question, yes I would benefit from slaughtered humans if they helped with a disfigurement, life saving procedures or improving on my appearance. I wouldn't agree with that either and would ensure my actions would harm none. I was not asking to be condoned, nor does it affect animal welfare. This product has been around for many years and there is no current animal testing involving this product.

Like you, I used to be an absolutist. When it comes to animal harm and suffering, I still am. My uncle just gave me his leather belt, which he's had for 20 years and almost never warn. This did not and will not contribute to an animal death either. While I haven't worn it, it was part of his life and I will remember him by it, when he is gone.

So, the lesson for the not-yet-vegans is this:

Do not contribute to the harming of animals
Do your best to remain true to your principals
Do what you need to take care of yourself
Know that there are times you will need to make hard decisions

Veganism is about causing as little harm as possible and exhibiting that possibility for others. We will grow more perfect as a community and will hopefully get better. Just like your own cell phone is not vegan, 'though we endeavor to make a difference, there are times that's not practically possible.

Friend, my appearance is not a non-issue, it affects how I am seen, but also how I am perceived. It is not a missing appendage I cannot replace and which I must learn to live with, it is something that will help me in life. It is not 'minor., it matters. Were it to cause death, I could not consider it, not even for a baboon heart transplant. This is the only substance that can fix it besides surgery, which I cannot afford, or silicone, which is not safe. I've decided to go through with it, as it did not contribute to the animals death and still benefits the rest of my life, altering its course. We can still strive to do better.

Having animal matter in me, harvested from an already dead animal is more *yuck* to me then unethical, as my actions did not harm it.

Thank you for your very thoughtful and detailed response, I appreciate it, and it's very much the way I used to think. My only goals now are to not cause harm and to champion for change. Thank you so much for taking the time to reply and I will still consider what you posted, as I go back to it.

 

[permabulk]

Is an animal that otherwise wouldn't have been harmed going to be harmed for this? No.

It makes no sense to count the damage in terms of individual animals given that animal parts are being used here. When the doctor runs out of animal parts, she'll most likely order more. OP getting the procedure contributes to the doctor ordering more.

Maybe the company performing the collagen extraction will net a pocket change level of profit more than it otherwise would.

Probably, but it doesn't matter because the plastic surgeon will benefit from selling the collagen. And the butcher benefits by being able to sell or at least get rid of unused animal parts.

So when should principles/deontology over ride consequentialism?

This philosophizing is a useless complication. Paying for unnecessary, easily avoidable animal products isn't vegan, giving doctors money for collagen rewards doctors for selling collagen and promotes doctors selling more collagen. It's very simple.

As regular people just trying to live a life all we can do is educate ourselves on the unpleasant details, make an honest effort to feel that moral weight, and then trust our moral intuition for better or worse.

That sounds very self-absorbed. If this is what it's like to be a "regular person," I'm not one. I don't know about you, but I am an ethical vegan, not a philosopher. I just avoid consuming or promoting the consumption of animal products without this focus on personal philosophy and convoluted excuses to do non-vegan things.

I especially appreciate what you said about offering each other strength to stick to veganism. I think that needs to be modeled far more often, in a way that doesn't come off as judgemental or more-vegan-than-thou. The internet tho...

Well I haven't come across any "holier-than-thou" vegans. In my experience, it's the people who are concerned with others being "judgmental" that are the problem. Instead of being focused on avoiding animal products, they are focused on themselves, their feelings, their hangups, their rationalizations for doing non-vegan things, and being judged for doing non-vegan things. Maybe if they'd stop viewing the vegan community as a support group that exists to validate them, we'd all be better off. It just doesn't really matter whether people are judging others, not compared to how much animal welfare matters. Taking a stand has consequences: people form opinions about us. Opinions are just thoughts; they won't kill us.

 

[permabulk]

Like you, I used to be an absolutist

I'm just an ethical vegan. That's all. Conforming to the meaning of ethical veganism is not "absolutist," it's just me being an ethical vegan. This reccurent narrative that actually trying to be a vegan is somehow "extreme" is nonsense and needs to die. It's the same narrative that anti-vegans use.

Just like your own cell phone is not vegan, 'though we endeavor to make a difference, there are times that's not practically possible.

Do not make assumptions about what other people own. Not getting plastic surgery is very much "practically possible," so I fail to see the relevance of that quote. Do what you will, but don't try to present it as something it's not.

We can still strive to do better.

Strive for it then. This isn't a "we" issue; it's a "you" issue. You make the choice. Own it and stop trying to drag other people into it.

 

[Sax]

That's awesome you've been able to avoid any compromising as a vegan. I don't think I've met any other vegans who've been able to say that, including the most hardcore activists I know.

 

[LukethePrettyGood]

I'm just an ethical vegan. That's all. Conforming to the meaning of ethical veganism is not "absolutist," it's just me being an ethical vegan. This reccurent narrative that actually trying to be a vegan is somehow "extreme" is nonsense and needs to die. It's the same narrative that anti-vegans use.

Do not make assumptions about what other people own. Not getting plastic surgery is very much "practically possible," so I fail to see the relevance of that quote. Do what you will, but don't try to present it as something it's not.

Strive for it then. This isn't a "we" issue; it's a "you" issue. You make the choice. Own it and stop trying to drag other people into it.

You sound really judgmental. My goal is to not cause additional harm. My doctor benefiting from the collagen has nothing to do with me. I am not interested in philosophizing over the use of the animal parts, making me complicit in their exploitation. I am interested in not causing harm. That's it, that's the story. If these animals were killed for their collagen, it would be a no-brainer. They were not and I have a responsibility to care for my own needs too, even if you have decided this is something I don't need to do. We have different outlooks. You are absolute about not using animal products for your benefit, even though it doesn't contribute to additional harm, only profit. I am only interested in preventing harm and avoiding products whenever possible. The fact you pass judgements about how much this should matter to me doesn't involve me. My number one philosophy is 'harm none.' That's it. That's the whole philosophy.

If this is something you don't align with, then you should not do it, which would also be a perfectly reasonable choice.

 

[silva]

This is situation that is absolutely left to the individual, without need to 'condone' or condemn.
The collagen used is a by product and in the grand scheme of animal welfare, trivial. For many people who feel adamant about vegan ethics, seeing what they perceive as a noticeable flaw they are aware can be easily remedied can become a trigger to want to quit being vegan entirely.
There is a fine line between being principled and being ocd

I'm appalled at the advice other people have given you in this thread. The best comment I've seen here is that you wait and see whether your nose bothers you as much later on. If it does continue to bother you, perhaps the money you have for the cosmetic procedure can be put towards counseling instead. People have learned to live with physical disfiguration far beyond what you have described. You sound as if you need some mental fortitude.

My attitude towards the vegan community is that we are best off (meaning, animals are best served) if we offer each other the strength to stick to veganism when possible. People who are determined to do non-vegan things can do so without being comforted and encouraged and having their behavior condoned. The first priority is animal welfare.

I suggest you think hard about whether the appearance of the tip of your nose is more important to you than your vegan principles. Might you regret this procedure in the future? People often come to care less about physical appearance as they gain life experience. Are you considering this primarily for yourself or are you mainly worried about how others will react to your appearance?

Don't forget that we as vegans exist as models for other people who might become vegans, both in real life and on the Internet, because anyone can read this forum. Do we really want to communicate that purchasing animal products for minor cosmetic procedures is acceptable? If people were murdering innocent humans, would you buy some of the body parts to alter your nose? These are all rhetorical questions for your consideration.

Legitimate "compromises" in the vegan lifestyle are for emergencies, health issues, potentially losing your job, etc: things that will truly upend or destroy one's life. We avoid animal products as best as we can, not only when it's psychologically easy, and we don't stop just for plastic surgery.

Everything I've boldened can easily wear away many many people to where the desire they intially had to quit animal products can be given up. Expecting everyone who has the intention of changing their ways to eliminate animal consumption and use to adhere to what YOU percieve to meet the vegan standard does more to cause people to shun the idea completely. What would rather? Create a wedge so wide only those willing to be seen as martyrs? It is a tiny fraction of people who adhere to vegan principles. When it comes to being a role model do you really think people look will think 'wow, they will even sacrifice their looks to avoid using a teeny amount of what would otherwise be scrapped, just because they have such high principles", and not role their eyes and reiterate the crazy vegan story?
There are so many people who avoid even trying to cut out meat because they feel they need to go so much further.
You say you're not judgemental, but all the highlights say otherwise

 

[LukethePrettyGood]

This is situation that is absolutely left to the individual, without need to 'condone' or condemn.
The collagen used is a by product and in the grand scheme of animal welfare, trivial. For many people who feel adamant about vegan ethics, seeing what they perceive as a noticeable flaw they are aware can be easily remedied can become a trigger to want to quit being vegan entirely.
There is a fine line between being principled and being ocd


Everything I've boldened can easily wear away many many people to where the desire they intially had to quit animal products can be given up. Expecting everyone who has the intention of changing their ways to eliminate animal consumption and use to adhere to what YOU percieve to meet the vegan standard does more to cause people to shun the idea completely. What would rather? Create a wedge so wide only those willing to be seen as martyrs? It is a tiny fraction of people who adhere to vegan principles. When it comes to being a role model do you really think people look will think 'wow, they will even sacrifice their looks to avoid using a teeny amount of what would otherwise be scrapped, just because they have such high principles", and not role their eyes and reiterate the crazy vegan story?
There are so many people who avoid even trying to cut out meat because they feel they need to go so much further.
You say you're not judgemental, but all the highlights say otherwise

Thank you, I thought there were a lot of unintentional judgements in her post, and I appreciate you input and support.

 

[Brian W]

Don't forget that we as vegans exist as models for other people who might become vegans, both in real life and on the Internet,

Sod that! I exist as myself and if others get the wrong impression, it's down to them. No way am I living my entire life trying to be something just because of some misplaced sense of moral idealism!

 

[Lou]

Don't forget that we as vegans exist as models for other people who might become vegans, both in real life and on the Internet, because anyone can read this forum.

I agree with you there.
I've chosen to be a happy joyful vegan as a model.
as opposed to an angry or judgmental or bordeline obsessive.

Keep in mind that we were all non vegans. and for most of us being vegan is just a fraction of our lives.

Can't remember where I learned this but making veganism appealing, being the kind of vegan that doesn't look like it's hard to do, is a great recruiting tool. Nine 90% vegans do less harm than one 100% vegan.