The 'instant-vegan' quote ...

[Clueless Git]

Credit to Andy-T (I guess most of us know him?) for this one ...

Topic on Vegan Forum about vegetarians deeming dairy and eggs to NOT be by-products of slaughter.

Andy-T: "Slaughter is the by-product of eggs and dairy".

Question there for those of us who are veg*an because we see wrong in the raising of massive flocks'n'herd that end short miserable lives in the abbatoirs ...

If not vegan then how are we different to meat-eaters?

 

[Second Summer]

I seem to remember the username from VF, yes.

Just like veganism is about reducing cruelty, so is ethically motivated vegetarianism, just usually to a lesser extent. Also, if all meat-eaters went vegetarian, then from where would the demand for slaughtered animals come?

 

[FortyTwo]

Yup.

Don't judge too harshly - every vegetarian has a reason for making that choice and for some it may be all they can do. They are making an effort, which is more than most people in the world can say...

 

[Clueless Git]

Also, if all meat-eaters went vegetarian, then from where would the demand for slaughtered animals come?

Are you suggesting if we kept animals soley for dairy they would not be slaughtered once their economic lifetime expired?

 

[Clueless Git]

Yup.

Don't judge too harshly - every vegetarian has a reason for making that choice and for some it may be all they can do. They are making an effort, which is more than most people in the world can say...

You confuse truth with harshness, I think.

You want to see truth, I can't help you.

You want to see harshness, go visit a battery farm.

 

[FortyTwo]

You confuse truth with harshness, I think.

You want to see truth, I can't help you.

You want to see harshness, go visit a battery farm.

Look, you posted something in the vegetarian forum demonizing vegetarians, or at least calling them out on their lifestyle. As a vegan, you know I do agree with you. To be blunt, I feel like my time as a vegetarian was hypocritical and I wish I'd transitioned to vegan sooner.

But there are a lot of people, even right on this forum, that don't feel that way.

Perhaps it'd be better for this to be a topic in the Debate forum? It's something that I'd definitely discuss, but posting it in the vegetarian subforum seems like an attack, whether you think it's warranted or not.

 

[Second Summer]

Are you suggesting if we kept animals soley for dairy they would not be slaughtered once their economic lifetime expired?

Are you suggesting an ethics-motivated vegetarian would slaughter cows?

Perhaps it'd be better for this to be a topic in the Debate forum? It's something that I'd definitely discuss, but posting it in the vegetarian subforum seems like an attack, whether you think it's warranted or not.

We've already decided to move it there once this turns into a debate.

 

[FortyTwo]

We've already decided to move it there once this turns into a debate.

Sounds about right.

 

[Second Summer]

MOD POST
I've moved this thread here from The Vegetarian Forum since it can be perceived as having turned into a debate of sorts at this point.

 

[Clueless Git]

Are you suggesting an ethics-motivated vegetarian would slaughter cows?

Not suggesting it, no.

I'm stating as fact that anything bred soley for profit from it's products has to be slaughtered at the end of it's productive life.

I'll also state as fact that the consumption of products which require animals to be bred as production units is entirely unethical in the first place.

 

[Clueless Git]

But there are a lot of people, even right on this forum, that don't feel that way.

Then let them discuss.

 

[Ann Chovie]

Are you suggesting an ethics-motivated vegetarian would slaughter cows?
.

If we demand milk then a cow has to be born to produce that milk.
Anything that is born has to die.
The "life' lived between that birth and death and that if a cow bred for meat only differs in the detail.
Both are bred for purpose and both end up in the slaughter house.

 

[Blobbenstein]

I think there is the issue of money, and that a lot of vegan product cost a bit more than LO-vegetarian products.
We live in a world(well in the UK) where dairy and eggs are in a lot of things..if food is your thing and you are poor then you might miss certain comfort foods. At the garage there is one chocolate bar that is vegan, and that is Fry's. I'm not sure why there is so little choice when lactose intolerance is quite prevalent.
I sort of do think my 25 years as a full on LO-veg were a bit hypocritical, but I suppose I needed a shift in perspective, and a normalisation of the vegan diet.

 

[SummerRain]

Question there for those of us who are veg*an because we see wrong in the raising of massive flocks'n'herd that end short miserable lives in the abbatoirs ...

If not vegan then how are we different to meat-eaters?

I thought you were vegan Clueless Git? You make it sound as though you're not.

The two main reasons I was a non-vegan vegetarian were because I wasn't aware that eggs and dairy were cruel/killed animals/etc, and because I wasn't sure that I would be able to be a vegan. When you've been vegan for a while, you forget how daunting and overwhelming going vegan can be at first - when you're looking at a big list of ingredients that look like gobledygook, when you're invited out for a meal to a restaurant with no vegan options, when you have no idea what you would put in a vegan sandwich, when you look at specialist bottles of vegan shampoo for £6 for a small bottle and worry about how you'll afford it. I can only imagine how much more daunting it would have been if I hadn't been LO-vegetarian, then O-vegetarian first.

Of course, there are lots of other reasons, especially for vegetarians that aren't vegetarian primarily for animal-rights reasons.

I don't think there's any point being critical [of non-vegan vegetarians], especially considering that life as a vegan would be so much more difficult if there wasn't a big population of vegetarians causing things like good food labeling, vegetarian options in most restaurants, opening vegetarian restaurants and health food stores.

If you look at your diet in the perspective as society as a whole you could argue that vegetarianism as a whole does more good than veganism - there are many more vegetarians, making a much bigger overall impact on the animals themselves, on the way society views animals, on the way society views making dietary choices for the sake of animal rights, and on influencing the rest of society. Vegetarianism is much more common and is adopted by a much bigger range of society, for a wider range of reasons than veganism.

I think it's incorrect to imply that vegetarianism doesn't do any good, I think every animal product that is avoided is a good thing, both directly (by lessening demand for animal products and increasing demand for vegetable ones) and indirectly (by influencing the way society views eating meat/eating vegetable based food).

 

[Clueless Git]

I thought you were vegan Clueless Git? You make it sound as though you're not.

Was using 'we' in the past tense, SR. Was vegetarian for a long time. Am vegan now.

The idea that giving up milk, eggs and cheese is hard is bogus. It is far less difficult than giving up meat which is something all those of who were once omni have already done. (Non dairy milks and cheeses are pretty much mainstream supermarket products nowadays anyway.)

Would be true to say that increasing numbers of vegetarians make things easier for the increasing number of vegetarians.

The increasing number of vegetarians actualy make things harder, NOT easier, for vegans on 2 main counts though:

1. The acceptability to vegetarians of dairy in meat-free product means that the meat-free food industry includes dairy (milk, butter, cheese, egg, whey etc) in about 90% of everything they make.

That renders about 90% of all meat-free convenience type foods non-vegan excluding vegans from being able to use them to make vegan life a little easier too.

2. The other thing that makes full bore veganism harder than it need be is the proliferation of slaughter by-products in so many things.

Slaughter being a by-product of eggs and dairy simply means that slaughter by-products are not soley generated by demand for meat.

Slaughter by-products are also generated by demand for eggs and dairy too.


Short version: The above two points form a circular nonsense; The amount of slaughter by-product being pumped into the chain makes life free of slaughter products hard - ergo - we must keep pumping slaughter by-products into the chain.

 

[Second Summer]

If we demand milk then a cow has to be born to produce that milk.
Anything that is born has to die.
The "life' lived between that birth and death and that if a cow bred for meat only differs in the detail.
Both are bred for purpose and both end up in the slaughter house.

Again, are you suggesting ethics-motivated vegetarians would slaughter cows?

 

[Second Summer]

Not suggesting it, no.

I'm stating as fact that anything bred soley for profit from it's products has to be slaughtered at the end of it's productive life.

Are you also suggesting ethics-motivated vegetarians would breed cows solely for profit?

I'll also state as fact that the consumption of products which require animals to be bred as production units is entirely unethical in the first place.

I will agree that consumption of such products is not ethical. Food products from veganic gardening that avoids animal manure is the only way forward.

 

[FortyTwo]

Of course, it'd be nice if everyone went vegan the first time they had that moment of connection between their food and the farms, but that transition stage is very important for some people. Including me, and apparently you, Clueless.

Nobody's saying that LO-vegetarians still aren't contributing to ethically unsound industries... at least I don't think so, anyway. If someone wants to make that argument then they'd be hard-pressed to find evidence for their viewpoint.

But any change for the better, even if it's partial, is good. By demonizing vegetarians I don't think any more good is being done. Already vegans are seen as extreme by mainstream society, being malevolent toward vegetarians isn't going to help the cause any because those people might be turned away from making even more choices that would benefit animals.

People who want to be educated will seek out that education; people who want you to educate them will typically ask you about it. Anyone outside that little bubble is likely to respond less to extremism, even if it's only perceived extremism, and more likely to respond to new ideas regarding lifestyle choices that are much more within their reach, and will lead them to people who appreciate their contributions even if it isn't really all they could be doing.

It's not just ideologically flawed to call out vegetarians as a vegan, it's impractical and self-destructive.

 

[Music Platter]

Just like veganism is about reducing cruelty, so is ethically motivated vegetarianism, just usually to a lesser extent.

It's not just ideologically flawed to call out vegetarians as a vegan, it's impractical and self-destructive.

I agree with these. One could argue that vegans are in fact not doing enough, and that we should all be out protesting everyday, or partaking in illegal acts like ELF and ALF do. It all depends on each person's priorities and life.

Kind of related question: Is a fruitarian higher up than vegans in the animal ethics pyramid? Or is it about the same?

 

[Clueless Git]

And now for something not completey different ...

Are you also suggesting ethics-motivated vegetarians would breed cows solely for profit?

Ethics motivated animal breeding is an oxymoron IS.

This being in the same way that 'ethicaly motivated pimps' or 'ethicaly motivated slavers' would be oxymorons.

The breeding, enslaving and exploitation of other sentient beings soley for self benefit (even if not for cash profits) is simply unethical.

I will agree that consumption of such products is not ethical. Food products from veganic gardening that avoids animal manure is the only way forward.

No argument on those points