Health Issues The Everything Covid 19 Thread

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Exactly! People are focusing on the wrong issue. First, we must safe lives, then afterwards think about the economy.
Just like, for example, if you are poor, but your cat gets sick, you just take care of the cat, it's a simple decision. Afterwards you eat poorly for a year, but your cat is alive and that's all that matters.
 
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Just a quick comment about the economy. If there is a major collapse it potentially kill a lot of people too. Mostly those who are already susceptible whether because of health or financial circumstances. Whether it's shortages of food or medical care and supplies or being subjected to violence from all the loons who have been stockpiling firearms and ammunition.

Covid-19 can make you very sick, and yes, it kills some people. Is it more deadly, by the numbers, than the flu? The numbers I've found and done the arithmetic-- I just don't see it being MORE dangerous to the general population. I don't know if the numbers I use are correct and have difficulty finding the flu numbers I want. Please, do correct me if I'm wrong --I am not claiming to be an expert or even competent in my evaluation. I see the panic and hysteria leading to shortages as a very contributing factor to the death toll, and general misery.

My concern is what happens when we get a bug that kills 40% or more of the people it comes in contact with--I don't know how likely that is, but it certainly is possible.

This is just my opinion, and I am a cranky older guy who is seldom optimistic-- about much of anything.
 
Well, @Bob Who , up until relatively recently, I thought somewhat along your lines, based on the numbers. I did not believe in the virus cause of this as you do(I think I've made that clear from several posts, including those predicting the crisis), but I did think that in whatever case, it has just been way overblown and hyped compared to other mass killers we have every year hardly anyone bats an eye at...

I still think that, except now I strongly suspect (I don't know for sure), but I have a real bad feeling that things are going to get a lot worse in a short time, and it will be blamed on a virus, but in actuality will be something only us "crazy conspiracy theorists" would dare to consider. A massive cull.

I hope I am either wrong, or it can be stopped/exposed.
 
Covid-19 can make you very sick, and yes, it kills some people. Is it more deadly, by the numbers, than the flu? The numbers I've found and done the arithmetic-- I just don't see it being MORE dangerous to the general population. I don't know if the numbers I use are correct and have difficulty finding the flu numbers I want. Please, do correct me if I'm wrong --I am not claiming to be an expert or even competent in my evaluation.
For a comparison of COVID-19 with flu, SARS and MERS, see the Twitter link I posted earlier:
 
I think what some people aren’t realizing, or choose to not acknowledge, is the reason covid19 may, hopefully, have less sick people and fatalities than the flu is because we have implemented extreme measures to keep it at bay. When this is all over there will undoubtedly be people saying, see...it wasn’t as bad as the flu. And that won’t be because it isn’t as bad as the flu. It will be because the social distancing worked. Yes, it’s coming at quite a price to many people and businesses. But if it were left alone to run it’s course there’s no doubt in my mind that the devastation to human life would be dramatic. Social distancing works.
 
I managed to order some more cat litter and loo roll from Amazon. The loo roll is supposed to be here Wednesday.

My dog has a minor health problem and the two people we usually get to drive us to the vet are self-isolating so my husband is having to do a video call with our vet.
 
I just sent the following email to my family. Context: I have 5 older siblings, 17 nieces and nephews, too many to count great-nieces and nephews and a dad in a nursing home (with Influenza A present) who is 97. None are vegan.

Emma JC
________
good morning dear family

As many of you know I follow the news very closely including many US political websites, not sites that have conspiracy theories but sites that are mainstream. It is what helped me to know, back in late February, that the situation that we now find ourselves in was coming and I started then to stock up on food and hehe toilet paper although in retrospect I maybe should have bought more TP and cleaning supplies like antibacterial wipes etc.

Yesterday I read two articles (on politico.com) that pointed to the fact that supply chains are being disrupted and the cost and availability of food is about to change. A lot of food is being thrown away because with restaurants, sporting events, cruise lines, airlines etc being shut down there is no way for the suppliers to get the food to stores. Milk is being thrown away by the millions of gallons, vegetables are being discarded…. the list goes on. Because the airlines are not flying the berries, and other produce from the south, Mexico and from South American are not able to hitch a ride north anymore. Places like Indian and Thailand and Vietnam are major supplies of rice and they are cutting back on what they send out also. This is going to lead to higher prices and eventually shortages. If anyone would like a link to the actual articles please let me know.

We do not have the ability to grow anything on our North East facing balcony and if we lived on a property, of any kind, we would be planting a garden. Back in the World Wars they called them Victory Gardens.

This is my encouragement to those of you that are able to consider planting a garden in whatever space you have and encouraging your neighbours to do the same. Save the seeds from the tomatoes and peppers and save those potatoes that are starting to sprout. Tops of onions can be planted, bulbs of garlic can be sprouted to grow more, seeds from squash etc. There are a ton of amazing videos on YouTube that can help you to figure out the best way to do all these things. I have found that saving tiny seeds like cherry tomatoes etc is easiest done on a paper towel, let them dry on there and then when the time is right you can just put the paper towel in the ground or in a sprouting area. (google it)

I am going out again tomorrow to buy more groceries, do our monthly banking etc and know that after that we likely won’t be going out for 3 weeks or more.

Most important thing to plant, in my opinion, is potatoes as one can live a long time on just potatoes (ask the Irish) and vitamin C producing things like tomatoes and any greens that you can. It may still be possible to buy seeds at the grocery store so do check that out on your next trip.

Meanwhile I encourage you to stock up on a bag or two of rice, lots of oatmeal, dry (navy, great northern, pinto) and canned beans (chick peas, lentils, kidney beans, black beans), canned tomatoes. I envy those of you with a freezer as I would pack it with frozen berries and frozen vegetables. Flour and yeast are starting to be very hard to come by and so if you can find yeast, buy it, and a few pounds of flour would be good. Any other obscure grains you can find in the natural food sections or at bulk stores can be ground into flour including oatmeal. Baking soda is also a good thing to buy as it can be used for cleaning also. Shelf stable milk (preferably plant milks) can be found in the natural food sections and they are good for months. Peanut butters, maple syrup, sugar and lemon juice in the bottles (I have two large and buying more if I can). Pastas, noodles, olives, vinegars, and of course as many potatoes, carrots, fresh veggies that you can store without out them going bad. Cabbage is amazing and can last a long time in the fridge!

You are welcome to think I am an alarmist, I won’t be offended, I just would not be able to live with myself if I didn’t pass on what I learned. My hope is that I am completely wrong and that you laugh at this email in a few months.

I am thankful that ___ is still working and we have enough food (and will after Tuesday) to last for a while. I will be wearing as mask when I go out, and gloves. I ordered a small sewing machine through amazon and some sheets and tshirts and thread to make more masks (it is arriving today) as my hand sewn mask is very uncomfortable.

Stay safe and well everyone! love you.
_________
 
Indian Summer, Thank you for the link.

I am not advocating anything regarding this virus, nor am I saying I am right. I am only saying what it looks like to me, based on what information I can find and to the extent I can verify.

At this point I think an even greater danger is the fear. I tried to think of a good analogy, but I fell short. Usually the reason I try to quote people who say it better and quicker to the point than I.

As far as the steps taken to slow down the virus, won't it just slow down the rate of infection, spreading it out over a longer time period so hopefully resources will be available if those people need them?
 
Just a quick comment about the economy. If there is a major collapse it potentially kill a lot of people too. Mostly those who are already susceptible whether because of health or financial circumstances. Whether it's shortages of food or medical care and supplies or being subjected to violence from all the loons who have been stockpiling firearms and ammunition.

Covid-19 can make you very sick, and yes, it kills some people. Is it more deadly, by the numbers, than the flu? The numbers I've found and done the arithmetic-- I just don't see it being MORE dangerous to the general population. I don't know if the numbers I use are correct and have difficulty finding the flu numbers I want. Please, do correct me if I'm wrong --I am not claiming to be an expert or even competent in my evaluation. I see the panic and hysteria leading to shortages as a very contributing factor to the death toll, and general misery.

My concern is what happens when we get a bug that kills 40% or more of the people it comes in contact with--I don't know how likely that is, but it certainly is possible.

This is just my opinion, and I am a cranky older guy who is seldom optimistic-- about much of anything.


Just piling on. Sorry.

Yes. absolutely taking care of the economy and stuff is very very important. But first and foremost we must control the spread of COVID. After all, you can't really enjoy the economy if you are dead. The Lt Gov of Texas is totally against Shelter in Place and closing businesses. He thinks the economy is first. And even went to say that he was willing to accept the risk of his own health to preserve the economy. Well, that is ok on a personal basis. But he is a leader and I doubt his constituents are all willing to agree to take that risk.

And there is no reason we can't do both with stimulus plans AND investments in our health services.

The thing that separates this thing from your normal run of the mill flu is 3 things. It spreads faster. and its spread is more insidious. A virus that not only spreads from human to human but also thru aerosol is incredibly hard to stop. Something like twice as contagious as the flu. If you can remember what exponential growth curves look like the COVID curve is twice as steep as the flu.

Covid also has a higher mortality rate. Maybe 30 times higher.

What is even worse is that it has a very long incubation rate. Maybe 3 times higher than the flu. That means people who get infected are way more likely to transmit it. Maybe 3x higher. Its the incubation rate that is what gives epidemiolgists nightmares. How far can you get and how many people can you be in contact with in three days? Now think of how far and how many in 2 weeks. This is why our best bet is sheltering in place.
 
At this point I think an even greater danger is the fear. I tried to think of a good analogy, but I fell short. Usually the reason I try to quote people who say it better and quicker to the point than I.
There's no doubt that the fear is causing some unnecessary suffering as well, I agree. It's hard to say to what extent, though. It's possible that some measures are going a bit far, such as the "lockdown" here in the UK and other places.

As far as the steps taken to slow down the virus, won't it just slow down the rate of infection, spreading it out over a longer time period so hopefully resources will be available if those people need them?
Yes, it slows the rate of infection, and it also buys us time, both of which are super important. Hospital resources are being taken up by people who are sick from the coronavirus, so people with other issues may have to wait, sometimes probably with fatal consequences. Also, with more time, scientists may be able to learn more about the virus so that better treatments can be identified, or maybe they can figure out why some people (possibly as much as 50% of those infected) don't have any symptoms at all. If we knew who couldn't get sick, then those people could go back to business as usual and stop being afraid.
 
There's no doubt that the fear is causing some unnecessary suffering as well, I agree. It's hard to say to what extent, though. It's possible that some measures are going a bit far, such as the "lockdown" here in the UK and other places.


Yes, it slows the rate of infection, and it also buys us time, both of which are super important. Hospital resources are being taken up by people who are sick from the coronavirus, so people with other issues may have to wait, sometimes probably with fatal consequences. Also, with more time, scientists may be able to learn more about the virus so that better treatments can be identified, or maybe they can figure out why some people (possibly as much as 50% of those infected) don't have any symptoms at all. If we knew who couldn't get sick, then those people could go back to business as usual and stop being afraid.

and here's an interesting article on the decision to be more strict or less - Sweden has been less strict and now is in worse shape than Norway, next door, who was very strict...

Emma JC

 
and here's an interesting article on the decision to be more strict or less - Sweden has been less strict and now is in worse shape than Norway, next door, who was very strict...

Emma JC

Absolutely. Sweden may have been too lax. But here in the UK we're currently supposed to only go outside the house once per day for exercise, and otherwise only for competely necessary errands. That is, you're not allowed to go and just sit in a park and enjoy the nice weather, even if you're keeping a very safe distance to everyone else. I think that is perhaps going too far.
 
There's no doubt that the fear is causing some unnecessary suffering as well, I agree. It's hard to say to what extent, though. It's possible that some measures are going a bit far, such as the "lockdown" here in the UK and other places.
Fear is causing people to hoard as well, and that doesn't help those who can shop only after they get paid, for instance. I'm trying really hard not to buy too much, and so far I haven't. But it's hard to resist the urge to prepare even more, lol. I did my initial stocking up in early March, I believe, and if I think rationally, I have plenty that would last me at least a couple of months; I'd just be without fresh stuff, but that's OK. I won't starve. I really feel for people who can't stock up because they simply don't have the money. I do plan to plant basil and possibly some deck tomatoes, as they are pretty easy to grow. We do have farmer's markets that open up in June or so, so hopefully farmers are still growing things. It's hard for them because some sell to local restaurants and stores, and I'm sure they've been wondering how much they should be growing in such uncertain times.
 
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Absolutely. Sweden may have been too lax. But here in the UK we're currently supposed to only go outside the house once per day for exercise, and otherwise only for competely necessary errands. That is, you're not allowed to go and just sit in a park and enjoy the nice weather, even if you're keeping a very safe distance to everyone else. I think that is perhaps going too far.
That's the problem. People in my state are not heeding the social distancing in the parks. Our state agency that runs the parks is threatening to close them if people don't start taking this whole thing more seriously. Right now, they are still open, but people are all over the trails and picnicking, which supposedly isn't allowed. Sadly, human nature being what it is, some people need rules.
 
Absolutely. Sweden may have been too lax. But here in the UK we're currently supposed to only go outside the house once per day for exercise, and otherwise only for competely necessary errands. That is, you're not allowed to go and just sit in a park and enjoy the nice weather, even if you're keeping a very safe distance to everyone else. I think that is perhaps going too far.

Like pouring water on a couple trying to BBQ on the beach?
 
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California really started the Shelter in place strategy very early in the game. And it has been pretty sucessful. Especially here in Northern California. Our Governor has warned us it might just be a blip but we might already be seeing the number of hospitalizations increasing at a decreasing rate.

BTW Ca didn't close the parks and beaches. Ca just closed the parking lots - making them less accesible - therefore reducing the number of people who go to them. And the other day I drove to a trailhead and the parking lot was open - and almost full. Still, the people on the trail were hundreds of feet apart and we gave ourselves plenty of distance between each other when passing or crossing. In my sister's neighborhood, I have never seen so many people walking their dogs and even the dogs are practicing (involuntarily) good physical distancing. I'm very impressed with how well Northern Californians are doing.

And remember we were one of the first places with reported cases. SFO, LAX, and SeaTac are major hubs for China air travel. Plus Northern California got the passengers from that cruise ship - where the guys from the federal government did not have PPEs and then went walking around. we even have a large population. but still our numbers are looking much better than many other places.
 
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