US The 2020 Campaign for US President

[1956]

oh, i didn't realize that was a rule. Good. I was concerned it would take up too much time, but the house ought to impeach him in an afternoon

Not sure if it is a rule, however, from what I have been hearing on CNN it sounds like it is...

 

[Jamie in Chile]

Impeachment is Really sounding like a good idea to me...
At first I thought that if the republicans in the senate didn’t agree to it that it would just make him more popular with his base supporters...which it might do, however, I don’t know if that matters now...
The most important thing is that he would be Impeached twice by the House, therefore not able to Ever hold public office again...

Had not heard about this possibility, but just googled it and read a few articles (the best one was from the Guardian, I will post a link) and it looks like it needs a vote in both chambers to disqualify from office.

The Guardian says that the "vote to disqualify [from holding office again] would require only a simple majority vote in the Senate, less than the two-thirds vote required for conviction."

It says the use of a majority vote rather than two-thirds in the senate is based on "established Senate practice" - so probably not written in law - and then highlights cases from 100+ years ago that it says set the precedent.

What isn't clear to me is whether that majority vote could be filibustered.

Or whether it could be overturned by a later vote years later, or challenged in law.

We must impeach Trump and bar him from holding office again. Now | Corey Brettschneider

 

[1956]

Just now trump tweeted that he Won’t attend the Inauguration!

 

[Jamie in Chile]

Stopping Trump from holding office again is well worth considering, but doing so because of what happened at the capitol appears to me to set a dangerous precedent.

The precedent could be that whoever is in power uses that power to remove/ban whoever they don't like.

If the judgement is that he should be impeached because of what happened at the Capitol it is not clear cut in a legal sense that Trump incited the protestors - I don't think he ever told them to go into the building or cause any damage, in fact he (eventually, when it was a bit late) opposed it. It's a basic principal of law that you have to have clear evidence of a crime to convict, and I don't see it. Saying "all his questioning of the election for so long and asking his supporters to meet up and protest inevitably led this" just doesn't cut it whatsoever in a legal sense.

I think the democrats should think carefully about how this will play out with the electorate, I believe that many Americans prefer their politicians to be working together and not fighting each other.

It may also take too long to get through the whole process - by the time they do, he will be leaving anyway. The process may annoy Trump and make him more likely to do some crazy stuff in the last days. By the sounds of the last part of that twitter video, he may be thinking about the future mid term than the next two weeks.

The banning of Trump from holding future office may be perceived by a segment of the population as the elite establishment locking out any outsiders. What the effects of this are on the public might also be considered. It could cause riots and so on. Not that we should pander to the mad, dangerous part of Trump's base, but just something to think about.

I'm pretty open minded since I just heard about this today. I could be convinced either way.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

I'm not sure about this stuff about the rats deserting the sinking ship to be honest.

Firstly, is is fair to criticise/condemn/stop from holding future everyone who worked in the Trump white house? What is some of them are good people who just make a judgement that overall it would do more good for the country for them to take the job? Oskar Schindler was a member of the Nazi party, but many consider him a hero. If someone speaks against Trump as soon as he loses office, and says they used their influence internally to resist certain things, and didn't carry out themselves any of the worst policies, I don't think they should be thrown under the bus just because they kept quiet about certain things when they felt it was strategic to do so.

Secondly, if I was working in the Trump white house, I think I would stay till the last day, and not leave the white house until I was ordered to do so or Trump himself had gone. If Trump is walking around the oval office 3 days before the inauguration saying "you know what, it would a great legacy for me if I launch a pre emptive nuclear strike against Iran and North Korea" you don't want Jared Kushner to be the only person left in the room.

However, it looks pretty unlikely that he will do anything crazy. But if there's even a thousand to one chance....you want some cool heads still in the room.

 

[1956]

Heard a report on CNN from their correspondent Arwa Damon who works mostly in the Middle East...
She was saying that all of the talk about the US looking like a Banana Republic or 3rd world country is Wrong...
Countries in the 3rd world Want democracy - the USA has had democracy- it is just that for the past 4 years there has been a “Monster” as the president...

I have not had a television for over 30 years! Have had one for the last 3 years, and access to CNN for the last year...
Now I watch Way too much TV!!!

 

[Lou]

THIS is interesting. Reminiscent of that dog walking lady vs the black birdwatcher. or the crazy red-shirted guy without a mask in Walmart. (they both got outed on social media and lost their jobs)
I'm all for it but I do see that this could be a dangerous trend.

People at the US Capitol riot are being identified and losing their jobs | CNN

At least three men have lost their jobs as a result of their involvement in the unrest at the US Capitol Wednesday.

www.cnn.com

 

[1956]

So very sad that what Should be the highlight of the week is almost forgotten - Jon Ossoff and Rev. Warnock Won their Senate seats in Georgia! trump manages to keep the spotlight on himself even if it is in a Very negative way...
Really looking forward to not Ever needing to give any thought to trump... And I refuse to capitalise his name,because he is Such a small man...

 

[Jamie in Chile]

Heard a report on CNN from their correspondent Arwa Damon who works mostly in the Middle East...
She was saying that all of the talk about the US looking like a Banana Republic or 3rd world country is Wrong...
Countries in the 3rd world Want democracy - the USA has had democracy- it is just that for the past 4 years there has been a “Monster” as the president...

I have not had a television for over 30 years! Have had one for the last 3 years, and access to CNN for the last year...
Now I watch Way too much TV!!!

A lot of interesting comments from everyone, I'm definitely learning a lot.

It will be interesting to see if US falls further in the Economist democracy ranking the next time they update it. It fell from 21st most democratic country (of 167) in 2017 to 25th (in 2019). "Functioning of government" was the category where the US did badly... I think the least democratic thing about the US is how it's 2 senators per state regardless of population. Then there's the electoral college, gerrymandering, the influence of corporate power and lobbyists...

The US is still however clearly more democratic than most countries in the world especially other powerful ones (i.e. Russia and China). The problem is that it is no longer the shining example it once was - from at least as far back as WW2 and maybe even since the founding of the US the country has been the world leader and champion of democracy and this continued until Trump. I'd argue that's no longer the case.

There are now a number of countries more democratic than the US. Probably most of Western and Northern Europe, and perhaps Canada, Australia, Mauritius, Chile, Uruguay, New Zealand, South Korea, Taiwan, Japan, Cabo Verde, Costa Rica, Botswana might now all be argued to be more democratic than the US (perhaps even before Trump). (I used the Economist's Democracy Index to help me compile this list.)

To be fair a lot of the countries I'm claiming as "more democratic than the US" only got to such a position because of the US. If it wasn't for the US, the Nazis or the Soviets might have overrun (and held) Europe, the non-democratic Japanese empire might have prevailed for longer, Taiwan would likely not have been able to stay effectively independent from China, and the whole of Korea would probably have fallen into the communist sphere of influence. We might be living in a much less democratic world today.

It's also worth nothing that the countries on the above list have little power (or desire) to influence what happens in the Middle East or Asia, and so the US may still continue to be the strongest voice for democracy, even though the country itself is flawed as a democracy.

Few countries once they had democracy want to go back to not having it. I cannot think of a single example right now. If the countries that don't have democracy don't have it it's usually because their government has controlled the media and brainwashed them (Russia), or because they don't know democracy so don't know what they are missing, or are resistant to change, or know that achieving democracy requires tremendous sacrifice of lives and stability (China).

I do agree most people in undemocratic countries do want democracy.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

THIS is interesting. Reminiscent of that dog walking lady vs the black birdwatcher. or the crazy red-shirted guy without a mask in Walmart. (they both got outed on social media and lost their jobs)
I'm all for it but I do see that this could be a dangerous trend.

People at the US Capitol riot are being identified and losing their jobs | CNN

At least three men have lost their jobs as a result of their involvement in the unrest at the US Capitol Wednesday.

www.cnn.com

Well the woman who gave the finger to Trump's motorcade was sacked. If you can be sacked for that, surely you can be sacked for storming the Capitol (to be fair hers was a government job and they are sacking people from private companies here but still).

I think the sackings are the right decision in most cases for anyone that went inside the Capitol building or did anything violent to persons or property. You probably want to have an investigation first and give them a chance to reply and not instantly sack someone just to get the righteous twitter mob off your back. I don´t think anyone protesting peacefully outside should be sacked from their job in a private company.

I like the fact that some of these people would have gotten away with it if they were smart enough to wear a mask in a crowd.

The one with the company name badge? What is the story there? Just came out of a conference and thought he´d stop by a storming of the Capitol on the way home? Always wears the company badge? Wore it because he actually wanted to be fired?

 

[PTree15]

This hasn't been reported by the media much but sadly Trump's antics since election day have had no impact at all on his approval ratings

He averages low to mid 40s still. He actually had a lower approval rating in 2017 when he was in the high 30s.

How Popular Is Donald Trump? | FiveThirtyEight

projects.fivethirtyeight.com

This can't be good news for the future of American democracy. I was expecting him to at least lose a few points.

You may recall he once said "“I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose any voters”.

Sad, but true. 74 million people voted for him, so unfortunately, there are a good number of people who remain in the cult of Trump.

 

[silva]

I'm not sure about this stuff about the rats deserting the sinking ship to be honest.

Firstly, is is fair to criticise/condemn/stop from holding future everyone who worked in the Trump white house? What is some of them are good people who just make a judgement that overall it would do more good for the country for them to take the job? Oskar Schindler was a member of the Nazi party, but many consider him a hero. If someone speaks against Trump as soon as he loses office, and says they used their influence internally to resist certain things, and didn't carry out themselves any of the worst policies, I don't think they should be thrown under the bus just because they kept quiet about certain things when they felt it was strategic to do so.

Secondly, if I was working in the Trump white house, I think I would stay till the last day, and not leave the white house until I was ordered to do so or Trump himself had gone. If Trump is walking around the oval office 3 days before the inauguration saying "you know what, it would a great legacy for me if I launch a pre emptive nuclear strike against Iran and North Korea" you don't want Jared Kushner to be the only person left in the room.

However, it looks pretty unlikely that he will do anything crazy. But if there's even a thousand to one chance....you want some cool heads still in the room.

They're resigning to avoid voting on invoking the 25th amendment. very much running scared as they'd lose a ton of influence on lobbyiests.

 

[silva]

THIS is interesting. Reminiscent of that dog walking lady vs the black birdwatcher. or the crazy red-shirted guy without a mask in Walmart. (they both got outed on social media and lost their jobs)
I'm all for it but I do see that this could be a dangerous trend.

People at the US Capitol riot are being identified and losing their jobs | CNN

At least three men have lost their jobs as a result of their involvement in the unrest at the US Capitol Wednesday.

www.cnn.com

Maybe because they should all be serving time shortly?

 

[David3]

Maybe because they should all be serving time shortly?

.
Indeed. And, prison terms for federal crimes don't include the possibility of parole: Is there a federal parole system?.
.

 

[silva]

at my old job I had lots of people to talk about this with, here nobody really discusses politics, and the little that's said makes me know not to bring up my beliefs!
I do have a few for quick commiserations at least.
Rachel Maddow is on when I wake up and I'm compelled to watch as she so succinctly breaks it down!

 

[silva]

Why are you posting political things on a vegan forum? To be fair there are at least some republican vegans.

Nothing to do with republicans though.
rumps policies are completely antithetical to vegan ethics.
Supporting rump would be like running a dog fighting ring

 

[Lou]

at my old job I had lots of people to talk about this with, here nobody really discusses politics, and the little that's said makes me know not to bring up my beliefs!
I do have a few for quick commiserations at least.
Rachel Maddow is on when I wake up and I'm compelled to watch as she so succinctly breaks it down!

You wake up a t 7PM?

 

[silva]

You wake up a t 7PM?

LOL! It's repeated at 4 AM.
It's on at 9pm here, and i'm in bed!

 

[1956]

Twitter has now Permanently suspended trump’s account - because they think that he is Too dangerous!

 

[silva]