Talking about children and veganism

[Sax]

I usually feel pretty confident talking about and defending veganism but I've found this to be a weak point. Advocating for veganism and animal rights hinges on animal products being unnecessary, and fears about child development can be really potent, so I need a good response when it comes up.

For adult health concerns I dodge nutrition discussion as much as possible - I simply point out vegans have won Olympic medals in weight lifting, set world records in endurance events, compete at the highest levels of virtually every sport and tend to be healthier than average. I don't try to argue that veganism is the best of all possible diets, just that it's compatible with long, happy, healthy lives and pretty much any fitness goal. And then pivot away from nutrition to the unjustified violence against animals.

Here's a pretty good article on raising kids vegan. It is mostly positive but the few negatives mentioned feel pretty powerful. It mentions a study showing vegan children to be shorter and have lower bone density, which gives ammo to people that want to claim malnutrition:

Is a vegan diet healthy for children?

Kamala Thiagarajan investigates what vegan families can learn from India's ancient tradition of plant-based cooking, coupled with new scientific insights.

www.bbc.com

I'd like to be able to briefly address these and similar concerns and then pivot back to animal ethics. How do you all handle this?

 

[silva]

Brenda Davis, RD, is geared towards raising vegan babies and children.
This is a great PDF to print out and leave around family places:

https://brendadavisrd.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/NOURISH-The-Real-Truth-About-Health-1-2.pdf

and The Effects of Vegetarian and Vegan Diet during Pregnancy on the Health of Mothers and Offspring

 

[silva]

Again, it's another opportunity to discuss what being vegan means. It doesn't mean you eat healthy, or that you eat junk, it means you don't eat animal products.
Saying omnivore doesn't mean you eat poorly--or healthy, it means you eat animals and their products

Our culture is so used to diets that include animals that veg'n diets are heavily and unfairly scrutinized.

 

[Lou]

"Infants and children are growing and developing rapidly (especially during infancy) and have very high requirements for certain nutrients while having relatively small stomachs. This means that the foods they are given should have maximum nutrients and enough energy in a relatively small volume," says Mary Fewtrell, professor of paediatric nutrition at University College London's Great Ormond Street Institute of Child Health.​

Is a vegan diet healthy for children?

Kamala Thiagarajan investigates what vegan families can learn from India's ancient tradition of plant-based cooking, coupled with new scientific insights.

www.bbc.com

I never really thought about this as being a real concern. And I'm not sure it is.
Granted the large nutrient requirements plus small stomach might be something against plant food. We all know that plant food is a low calorie density food. but it's also a high nutrient density food. So it might be the main question is if a child can meet their calorie requirements with plant based diet. And I'm going to say probably although I have not tried to figure this out before. If calories are the issue then we can just supply apple juice. or better yet, apple slices and bananas. I know kids love those.

 

[silva]

"Infants and children are growing and developing rapidly (especially during infancy) and have very high requirements for certain nutrients while having relatively small stomachs. This means that the foods they are given should have maximum nutrients and enough energy in a relatively small volume," says Mary Fewtrell, professor of paediatric nutrition at University College London's Great Ormond Street Institute of Child Health.​

Is a vegan diet healthy for children?

Kamala Thiagarajan investigates what vegan families can learn from India's ancient tradition of plant-based cooking, coupled with new scientific insights.

www.bbc.com

I never really thought about this as being a real concern. And I'm not sure it is.
Granted the large nutrient requirements plus small stomach might be something against plant food. We all know that plant food is a low calorie density food. but it's also a high nutrient density food. So it might be the main question is if a child can meet their calorie requirements with plant based diet. And I'm going to say probably although I have not tried to figure this out before. If calories are the issue then we can just supply apple juice. or better yet, apple slices and bananas. I know kids love those.

Know what the leading health concern among kids is now? Obesity, high cholesterol, pre diabetes and even high blood pressure

Childhood Obesity l Endocrinology l University Hospitals Rainbow Babies & Children’s Hospital l University Hospitals l Cleveland, OH | University Hospitals

Our expert pediatric endocrinologists at UH Rainbow Babies & Children’s work to provide healthy and positive solutions to combat childhood obesity.

www.uhhospitals.org

The biggest problem is plant based diets aren't the norm, not that they're any more difficult to provide nutrition and calories..

Waiting for @Second Summer to chime in!

 

[silva]

Plant-Based Pediatrician Resources Page — Plant Based Pediatrician

www.plantbasedpediatrician.com

Offers many other resources for raising plant based families

 

[Graeme M]

It's tricky and I don't have a solid opinion, not being a nutritionist. However, unlike many people who take up veganism, I do not believe that all humans can survive and thrive on a plant-based diet. It may be possible for some people with enough care, planning and knowledge, but I remain unconvinced about the case for others and for young children. Human beings have always eaten animals, we have adaptations to suit and it is the natural state of affairs within the biosphere. That just is how the world is.

So for me, animal rights is not about never eating other animals (and nor does the definition of veganism suggest this either). Rather, the notion is about being fair to other animals whenever we can be. That does not mean that other animals cannot be used by us when necessary but rather that when we do, we ensure that their rights are protected to the extent possible.

So, feeding very young children a vegan diet? I don't know. I wouldn't do it.

 

[Sax]

Maybe the best option is to keep the focus on them. "I disagree that it's unhealthy for kids and so do nutrition experts but how would that justify you eating animals?" It's not ceding any ground and it puts the spotlight back on their diet which will almost certainly lead to the familiar excuses and fallacies.

The topic deserves more than that but I want to share my thoughts on animal rights, not children's nutrition.

 

[Brian W]

Human beings have always eaten animals, we have adaptations to suit and it is the natural state of affairs within the biosphere. That just is how the world is.

"Human beings" is an arbitrary human concept. Once upon a time, we only included Cro-Magnon and later, but now we include neanderthals under the label "human." If we ask a different question, "what have primates always eaten" we get a different picture, and what if we go back even further? The important point therefore isn't what "human beings" have always eaten but what "human beings" are capable of eating and sustaining a healthy diet with and all the relevant science says that a well planned plant based diet is suitable for people of all ages, including young children. What adaptations do we have? Those four tiny pins that anti-vegans call canine teeth?

 

[silva]

It's tricky and I don't have a solid opinion, not being a nutritionist. However, unlike many people who take up veganism, I do not believe that all humans can survive and thrive on a plant-based diet. It may be possible for some people with enough care, planning and knowledge, but I remain unconvinced about the case for others and for young children. Human beings have always eaten animals, we have adaptations to suit and it is the natural state of affairs within the biosphere. That just is how the world is.

So for me, animal rights is not about never eating other animals (and nor does the definition of veganism suggest this either). Rather, the notion is about being fair to other animals whenever we can be. That does not mean that other animals cannot be used by us when necessary but rather that when we do, we ensure that their rights are protected to the extent possible.

So, feeding very young children a vegan diet? I don't know. I wouldn't do it.

Our evolving ancestors lived an entirely different physiological life than we do now. Survival drove their lifestyle, and their days were spent searching for food and shelter with high adrenaline fueling their need for fight or flight. Sleep was incremental, transport never more than the speed of foot travel, rest was only has when danger was mitigated. They ate a lot of insects, and ate and used every part of the animal, using skins for warmth and protection and bones for tools and building. Woman were solely baby makers and caretakers while men were the hunters and contollers. The weak or infirm were cast off if they became a threat.

Assessing the calorific significance of episodes of human cannibalism in the Palaeolithic

Episodes of Palaeolithic cannibalism have frequently been defined as ‘nutritional’ in nature, but with little empirical evidence to assess their dietary significance. This paper presents a nutritional template that offers a proxy calorie ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Humans may have evolved with meat in their diet, but we have not evolved into carnivours. We are biologically capable of getting all our nutrients from plants. What I see as the primary reason for eating plant based is exactly the same reason Neandrethals and Cro Magnums hunted animals--it suits our physiological needs for the times

Would you also argue that because of our ancestral history we should never travel faster than what we could by foot, or sleep uninterrupted, or that females should be ruled over and become mothers in childhood?
Sounds like if you were alive then you'd have fear of fire and the wheel

 

[Lou]

The important point therefore isn't what "human beings" have always eaten....

Not exactly on point but I love this quote.

Just because we can doesn’t mean we should. Just because we always have doesn’t mean we always have to. Once we know better, we should choose better.
-Colleen Patrick-Goudreau-

Human beings rape, steal, murder, and all kinds of bad things. Has never made it right.

 

[Lou]

"Human beings" is an arbitrary human concept.

human being, a culture-bearing primate classified in the genus Homo, especially the species H. sapiens. Human beings are anatomically similar and related to the great apes but are distinguished by a more highly developed brainand a resultant capacity for articulate speech and abstract reasoning.​

Human being | Mental Health, Emotions & Behavior

Human being, a culture-bearing primate classified in the genus Homo, especially the species H. sapiens. Human beings are anatomically similar and related to the great apes but are distinguished by a more highly developed brain and a resultant capacity for articulate speech and abstract reasoning.

www.britannica.com

But I get where you are coming from.
We know from some archaeological evidence that some of the early hominids were mostly vegetarian.
Before we came down for the trees we probably ate a diet very similar to the other great apes - mostly vegetarian.

 

[Lou]

Getting back on topic.....

IF the main argument for not raising children vegan is nutrition. We can pretty easily pop that balloon. With a reasonable amount of care and a small number of supplements a vegan diet can be nutritionally adequate. And it can be easily imagined that children raised by concerned vegan parents are going to have better nutrition than the standard kid. Standard kids are almost from birth addicted to salt, fat and sugar.

Now certainly there is nothing non vegan about salt, fat and sugar but it's not the default ingredients in a vegan diet. Just like us they should stay away from processed foods and just eat home cooked meals (most of the time).

I just read that babies shouldn't eat much salt, sugar, dairy and meat for good health. HA. they start off as Proto WFPB vegans.

Salt, Sugar, and Fat, Are the Biggest Health Threat to Kids. Anyone Listening?

Kids eat too much salt, added sugar, and refined oils. Parents don't need to cut them out altogether, but they do need to cut down on them.

www.fatherly.com

Introducing Salt, Sugar, Dairy and Meat To Your Baby - Is This Normal

Introducing foods to a baby can be tricky! We tapped a registered dietician for how she approaches introducing meat, sugar, dairy and salt.

isthisnormal.littlespoon.com

 

[Lou]

Oh, sorry just thought of one more thing

Some might call it indocrination. but I think every parent is guilty of it.
One of parents job is to instill good values. A vegan's. lifestyle reflects their values.
Very little cognitive dissonance.
A lot of third graders won't eat bacon after reading Charlotte's Web.
Little kids are naturally pretty empathic and compassionate. I think raising them vegan would benefit them in a number of other ways besides nutritionally.

 

[silva]

Oh, sorry just thought of one more thing

Some might call it indocrination. but I think every parent is guilty of it.
One of parents job is to instill good values. A vegan's. lifestyle reflects their values.
Very little cognitive dissonance.
A lot of third graders won't eat bacon after reading Charlotte's Web.
Little kids are naturally pretty empathic and compassionate. I think raising them vegan would benefit them in a number of other ways besides nutritionally.

I was vegetarian prior to marriage, but less so when I learned I was pregnant. I was very healthy, but couldn't shake the nagging worry that I should more making babies. Of course the pressure was crazy.
Both sons wish they'd have been raised veg, as do I.

Plant based diets simply make sense for the way we live now. We are far far from a cavemans daily life. We don't need the calories or fat.
Anyone who's plateaued on a diet knows that human metabolisism is geared to hold on to body weight when food is scarce. There aren't that many people lacking calories now, it's a nutrition deficeit many face instead

 

[Graeme M]

All good points, but I remain uncertain. Yes, some nutritionists say a vegan diet is healthy and safe for all stages of life and with enough care and planning it may very well be so. My point about what humans ate is that we never did only eat plants so it's hard to point to actual evidence for humans living and thriving from plants alone. Maybe we can, maybe we can't. I am just not convinced. As for adaptations, some examples include B12, lactase persistence, teeth, length of gut and so on. We are naturally omnivores which means we are suited both adaptively and culturally to eating animals as well as plants.

I am not going to argue that we MUST eat meat, I am just saying that I personally am not convinced a plant-based diet is the best option for youngsters. In the OP, Sax pointed out some possible examples of risks with plants-only diets. The worry I have is that people are notoriously unwilling to really plan their diets - they tend to just eat what they like. So if a plants-only diet for youngsters requires special care and attention it is very likely people will simply not do so and those risks may be realised.

My own feeling is that humans are best suited to a diet high in plant foods but with some animal content. The Mediterranean diet is perhaps a good example of what I think is an optimal human diet. Whether in the modern world we can make a plants-only diet work as a general state of affairs I don't know. I just do not think so.

Now with that said, it poses no problems for the way I think about veganism (because I promote veganism and animal rights as a matter of justice and fairness, but which does not require we never use other animals when we must). But it probably does if your vegan advocacy requires a slavish attention to a very strict diet. So... I guess we will have to wait and see why happens if more people take up the very strict diet and where they end up as a general cohort.

 

[bEt]

Maybe the best option is to keep the focus on them. "I disagree that it's unhealthy for kids and so do nutrition experts but how would that justify you eating animals?" It's not ceding any ground and it puts the spotlight back on their diet which will almost certainly lead to the familiar excuses and fallacies.

The topic deserves more than that but I want to share my thoughts on animal rights, not children's nutrition.

Yes, I agree that proving a point about children and nutrition may not necessarily be helpful in the kind of conversation you are talking about here.

I think I heard someone say once that as humans, our emotions often rule our logic, not the other way around. To me, what that means is that if someone isn't emotionally ready to hear facts, they aren't going to hear them, regardless of whether they are true.
I wonder if that's why people who initially choose to take a step closer to a plant-based diet for their own health may end up eventually 'warming up to' the ethical arguments in favor of veganism: They don't 'need' (emotionally need, that is) to defend the practice of meat-eating anymore. They don't need to make the excuses.

Everybody likes to be right, and people generally don't like to "lose" arguments.

I was in the middle of a petty argument the other day. Someone was going out of their way to prove to me that I was wrong. At some point I realized that I didn't really care whether I was wrong-- I just wanted to be heard and for the other person to show that they cared how I felt.
So in a situation where someone wants to talk about veganism, what can I do to help them feel heard? How can I help them get more curious about how their diet affects both them personally and the world, including human beings' relationship to animals? What is stopping them from being ready to think about this?

Maybe when someone brings up "nutrition in growing children", this really reflects a kind of basic fear -- of the unknown, or fear of 'not having enough', or both.
And who can blame them for feeling that way? After all, our present concept of veganism is less than 100 years old. Probably for many of our ancestors, animal products were a scarce and precious resource-- as reflected in phrases like "don't cry over spilt milk"-- because milk used to be so valuable and hard to acquire that losing even a cupful to spilling was a minor tragedy. And now we are going to tell people to turn their backs on the bounty of dairy etc available for very cheap thanks to the 'miracle' of factory farming? My great-grandmother would think I was crazy!

Maybe with someone who is saying they are worried about growing children and their special nutritional needs, I might just let that topic go with something like, "So you were raised with meat in your diet, and you were healthy, and you're not sure if you would've been healthy otherwise? Well, that makes sense. I guess I wasn't raised vegan, either, actually. I can see how you'd be worried about that. . . but what about now? Do you think for adults like us, there is some minimum amount of meat or milk that we need to eat in order to be healthy? It might be interesting to look into that. I wonder what you could find out if you looked into it? And by the way, have you ever been curious about how animal agriculture works nowadays?"

The thing about giving people facts, is it doesn't necessarily change their minds. The way that I changed my own mind about how I eat was mostly by being encouraged to ask questions. No one ever argued with me or told me to become vegan. Only to think for myself, and this is where I ended up.

 

[Brian W]

human being, a culture-bearing primate classified in the genus Homo, especially the species H. sapiens. Human beings are anatomically similar and related to the great apes but are distinguished by a more highly developed brainand a resultant capacity for articulate speech and abstract reasoning.​

Human being | Mental Health, Emotions & Behavior

Human being, a culture-bearing primate classified in the genus Homo, especially the species H. sapiens. Human beings are anatomically similar and related to the great apes but are distinguished by a more highly developed brain and a resultant capacity for articulate speech and abstract reasoning.

www.britannica.com

But I get where you are coming from.
We know from some archaeological evidence that some of the early hominids were mostly vegetarian.
Before we came down for the trees we probably ate a diet very similar to the other great apes - mostly vegetarian.

All I meant was that language is abstract and only carries meaning that we give it. In the case of "what we have always eaten" the term "human being" doesn't seem to have relevance because we haven't always been "human beings." I admit I used the term "arbitrary" wrongly but I think my point still applies. Watch almost any group of apes and tell me you are certain that they have no culture. Tell me that you are certain their brains are not highly developed and that they are not capable of abstract reasoning. We judge these things by our own criteria and then decades down the line, we discover that we were wrong and we had underestimated them but we never learn our lesson not to make such assumptions.

 

[Lou]

think my point still applies.

Absolutely. Didn't mean to sound critical.

Watch almost any group of apes and tell me you are certain that they have no culture.

They do. Biologist think it's an evolutionary advantage that we inherited. Could be a gene for culture.

Tell me that you are certain their brains are not highly developed and that they are not capable of abstract reasoning.

I may be anthropomorphizing, but I think I've witnessed my sister's dog reasoning and problem solving.

We judge these things by our own criteria and then decades down the line, we discover that we were wrong and we had underestimated them but we never learn our lesson not to make such assumptions.

Franz de Waal who is maybe the foremost expert on animal intelligence actually came up with the same concluclsion.It just took him like 20 years. He finally concluded (and wrote a book on it) that we are not smart enough to know how smart animals are.

Summary and reviews of Are We Smart Enough to Know How Smart Animals Are? by Frans de Waal

From world-renowned biologist and primatologist Frans de Waal, a groundbreaking work on animal intelligence destined to become a classic.

www.bookbrowse.com

 

[Sax]

Maybe the best option is to keep the focus on them. "I disagree that it's unhealthy for kids and so do nutrition experts but how would that justify you eating animals?" It's not ceding any ground and it puts the spotlight back on their diet which will almost certainly lead to the familiar excuses and fallacies.

The topic deserves more than that but I want to share my thoughts on animal rights, not children's nutrition.

I'm not satisfied with this. I want to argue for systemic change and this is kind of a dodge that frames the discussion on individual choice.

Are there any athletes, celebrities or influencers that were raised vegan from birth?