beancounter
The Fire That Burns Within
Everything is trying to kill you.
Such is entropy.
Do the best you can and don't worry too much.
Such is entropy.
Do the best you can and don't worry too much.
'Plants are trying to kill you`!-Dr Anthony Chaffee
- Thread starter Datel
- Start date
When people talk about Paleo and Carnivore diets as if this is the natural diet, they never explain what would be a normal lifespan during these times.
"Meat is a good diet if you only plan to live to be 40."
Our longest lived people are plant based. Okinawa, China Study, Loma Linda, and all the Blue Zones are plant based.
If plants have been trying to kill the Okinawans, then the Okinawans are winning.
www.thesun.co.uk
A study that tracked almost 100,000 Americans for five years found that non-meat eaters were less likely to die, of any cause, during the study period than meat eaters.
This effect was especially noticeable in males.
"Meat is a good diet if you only plan to live to be 40."
Our longest lived people are plant based. Okinawa, China Study, Loma Linda, and all the Blue Zones are plant based.
If plants have been trying to kill the Okinawans, then the Okinawans are winning.
Who lives longer meat eaters or veggies? Expert reveals the dietary key to a long life
OUR ability to live a long life is influenced by a combination of our genes and our environment. In studies that involve identical twins, scientists have estimated that no more than 30 per cent of …
www.thesun.co.uk
A study that tracked almost 100,000 Americans for five years found that non-meat eaters were less likely to die, of any cause, during the study period than meat eaters.
This effect was especially noticeable in males.
Lou
Forum Legend
IMHO, Paleo is the stupidest diet. Even stupider than Keto which at least has some scientific basis.
It seems to me that a day doesn't go by where a study isn't released showing low carb diets don't work or have adverse results.
It seems to me that a day doesn't go by where a study isn't released showing low carb diets don't work or have adverse results.
Yeah ... I guess there's really no point in discussing hypothetical scenarios when most of us would likely eat a little meat if it were 100% proven that humans need it to avoid sickness.
Thankfully, it seems it's the other way around. 100% plant based is perfectly fine to maintain better health than the majority of people on the planet.
Graeme M
Forum Legend
Quite an interesting thread. I think the whole "plants are trying to kill us" thing is nuts. There are simply hundreds/thousands of species of plants that we can eat and many of the compounds in them, even those used for defence, can be beneficial for humans. Humans have always eaten plants, so I'm not sure why these people might think differently. It's a bit hard to make claims based on the distant past because I am not sure people were eating foods to keep them alive for a long time, but more to keep them alive long enough. Modern research seems to tell us that plant-based diets can be healthy.
On the matter of motivation for veganism, I am not vegan for health, but equally as noted here before I don't really qualify as "vegan" based on typical interpretations of veganism. I don't have even the vaguest qualms about humans using and eating animals and it's not exactly clear to me why most vegans do. I suspect it is an emotional response as mentioned earlier. My interest in veganism boils down to fairness - I think veganism is the idea we strive to be fair to other animals when we can, not that we simply never do anything to harm them.
So, I eat a diet that I think seems reasonable in both ethical and health terms. It is mostly plant based but does include some animal products. I think that a very carefully planned plants-only diet *might* be healthy enough, but I think the "very carefully planned" bit could be the killer for most people. The average person just does not worry about their nutrition to that degree and most get "sort of" useful nutrition simply by accident.
By way of example, a recent paper presented a secondary analysis of the NiPPeR double-blind randomized controlled trial which involved investigating vitamin status in women before, during and after pregnancy. What did they find?
"Over 90% of the trial participants had marginal or low concentrations of one or more of folate, riboflavin, vitamin B12, or vitamin D during preconception, and many developed markers of vitamin B6 deficiency in late pregnancy. Preconception/pregnancy supplementation in amounts available in over-the-counter supplements substantially reduces the prevalence of vitamin deficiency and depletion markers before and during pregnancy, with higher maternal plasma vitamin B12 maintained during the recommended lactational period."
So even people eating an everyday omnivore diet often fail to get adequate nutrition. What's the odds they would do better on a plants only diet if they did NOT spend a lot of time learning how to do it?
In the end, most people prioritise taste, flavour, convenience and price over ethics. They will tend to embrace anyone who tells them that it's best to include animals in their diet, which is partly why the animal food industry seems to have done such a good job of undermining the vegan argument in the past few years. Combine that with the current state of the alt-meat sector (due to a variety of economic and attitudinal concerns) and it seems very hard to convince more people that a plant-based, vegan-friendly diet is the best. Or even second best...
On the matter of motivation for veganism, I am not vegan for health, but equally as noted here before I don't really qualify as "vegan" based on typical interpretations of veganism. I don't have even the vaguest qualms about humans using and eating animals and it's not exactly clear to me why most vegans do. I suspect it is an emotional response as mentioned earlier. My interest in veganism boils down to fairness - I think veganism is the idea we strive to be fair to other animals when we can, not that we simply never do anything to harm them.
So, I eat a diet that I think seems reasonable in both ethical and health terms. It is mostly plant based but does include some animal products. I think that a very carefully planned plants-only diet *might* be healthy enough, but I think the "very carefully planned" bit could be the killer for most people. The average person just does not worry about their nutrition to that degree and most get "sort of" useful nutrition simply by accident.
By way of example, a recent paper presented a secondary analysis of the NiPPeR double-blind randomized controlled trial which involved investigating vitamin status in women before, during and after pregnancy. What did they find?
"Over 90% of the trial participants had marginal or low concentrations of one or more of folate, riboflavin, vitamin B12, or vitamin D during preconception, and many developed markers of vitamin B6 deficiency in late pregnancy. Preconception/pregnancy supplementation in amounts available in over-the-counter supplements substantially reduces the prevalence of vitamin deficiency and depletion markers before and during pregnancy, with higher maternal plasma vitamin B12 maintained during the recommended lactational period."
So even people eating an everyday omnivore diet often fail to get adequate nutrition. What's the odds they would do better on a plants only diet if they did NOT spend a lot of time learning how to do it?
In the end, most people prioritise taste, flavour, convenience and price over ethics. They will tend to embrace anyone who tells them that it's best to include animals in their diet, which is partly why the animal food industry seems to have done such a good job of undermining the vegan argument in the past few years. Combine that with the current state of the alt-meat sector (due to a variety of economic and attitudinal concerns) and it seems very hard to convince more people that a plant-based, vegan-friendly diet is the best. Or even second best...
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I'd say pretty good since the average plant based diet has more nutrient dense whole foods than the average omni diet. And even if it did put you at higher risk of minor nutrient deficiencies the real health problems people suffer from as a result of diet have far more to do with nutritional excess.
Dr. Greger's daily dozen is perfect for people new to veganism who don't want to think too much about nutrition.
Plants have defense mechanisms to protect against herbivores wiping them out. As Graeme points out, many of these chemical compounds are beneficial for us when cooked, such as phytates. Others provide medicine--I wonder if these carnavours are against medicine? 
I seriously want a showdown between hard core carnivours and wfpb vegans
I seriously want a showdown between hard core carnivours and wfpb vegans
Brian W
Conscientious Christian
I don't think it would help sadly. Whenever there is a Youtube debate wherein the vegans are clearly right, there are still die-hard anti-vegans that post sections of the video and label it something like "Carnivore absolutely owns stupid vegan" showing that they have no intention of entertaining truth.
Lou
Forum Legend
I just realized that these carnivores must not be getting any fiber.
They are probably so constipated they can't think straight
They are probably so constipated they can't think straight
I wonder if these 'carniours' consume the whole animal, innards, brains, bones?
Many carnivour sites say fiber is the cause of constipation! The ones that show a picture of a child holding broccoli with a yuck face
Hooo....Just went incognito and found a site by Dr Kiltz (LOL!) that is nothing but lies! One is that meat is 100% easily digested while fibrous produce ferment and can damage internal organs. And that high fiber diets cause pain while pooping
, and constipation 
Brian W
Conscientious Christian
Why do so many of these social media carnivores call themselves Dr when they either have no qualifications or have had their license revoked?I wonder if these 'carniours' consume the whole animal, innards, brains, bones?
Many carnivour sites say fiber is the cause of constipation! The ones that show a picture of a child holding broccoli with a yuck face
Hooo....Just went incognito and found a site by Dr Kiltz (LOL!) that is nothing but lies! One is that meat is 100% easily digested while fibrous produce ferment and can damage internal organs. And that high fiber diets cause pain while pooping
I watched a British tv show where they gave one twin an extremely high fiber plant based diet, and the other twin a meat heavy low fiber diet. At the end they swallowed trackers that documented how fast food was moving through the GI tract. The plant based fiber tracker came out the next day. 5 days later the meat dominant low fiber twin still hadn't managed to poop the tracker out.
5 days, ewww. I so remember when I gave up meat realizing how much lighter my gut felt.. I used to feel like food was fermenting in my stomach, not so much bloating--I don't really remember other than thinking it seems like something rotting. That absolutely disappeared when I went plant based.
I will again say, the great health feelings really are from eating as close to wfpb and not so much just a vegan version of typical omni diets
Graeme M
Forum Legend
^ This ^ It frustrates the heck out of me that you can show these people and other anti-vegans all the evidence in the world and they simply won't budge. They don't really care whether or not they are right, because what they do is what they want to do.
I often wonder that too. IF one wants to be a carnivore, then to get adequate nutrition one should eat the whole animal nose to tail because it's the organs that provide many vitamins and minerals. I sometimes see people who eat nothing but steak and bacon saying that they are now powerhouses of health and longevity. I'm sorry, but probably not...
Yes, they do (allowed or not) or use them, I guess. And others as well. Knowingly or not. You could shred the whole animal/slaughter offal, leaving a pulp that e.g. food technicians can process into delicious dishes/ingredients, I guess. So, I remember, cookies were once made (not forbidden) from/with pork bristles. It can make your mouth water. Or somewhere else entirely. Or other slaughterhouse waste is (not forbidden) used for fabric softener (so do not use such in any case). And so on.
You could add shredded slaughter waste (illegally or legally) anywhere (to minced meat, kebab meat, ready meals, canned meals, etc.) without anyone noticing (apart from the revelations about so-called meat scandals and such) and it doesn't have to make the dish taste worse. Quite the opposite.
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It's very common to see carnivores posting on Twitter saying they haven't taken a sh1t in days. Sometimes over a week!
Their argument is usually that they don't need to go number two's because the body absorbs all the nutrients from the meat and there's nothing left to poop out ... lol
You have to wonder about the general level of intelligence among humans these days.
(Bold emphasis mine)It's very common to see carnivores posting on Twitter saying they haven't taken a sh1t in days. Sometimes over a week!
Their argument is usually that they don't need to go number two's because the body absorbs all the nutrients from the meat and there's nothing left to poop out ... lol
You have to wonder about the general level of intelligence among humans these days.
Lou
Forum Legend
Huh. Y'know that sounds logical.It's very common to see carnivores posting on Twitter saying they haven't taken a sh1t in days. Sometimes over a week!
Their argument is usually that they don't need to go number two's because the body absorbs all the nutrients from the meat and there's nothing left to poop out ... lol
You have to wonder about the general level of intelligence among humans these days.
