"Old people are expendable"

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Max Caulfield

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Thank you. This attitude that older people are expendable is horrible, like we don't matter. We have lives, too, and very fulfilling ones at that.

Is it really? Logically speaking to society old people are pretty much not only useless (there are some exceptions) but also drain on it as they get paid while not doing any work (pension) and much more likely suffering from various health problems (healthcare). Essentially society has to spend resources on them, while they aren't contributing to society and probably won't be for their remaining lives. Avoiding whole sentimental aspect and it's effects it would have more positive effects to society if old people have died due to factor above. Meaning old people life isn't of much importance in terms of utility. Rationally speaking old people would be of very low priority in crisis and you would leave them as last ones to save due to variety of factors such as explained in this post and my previous posts regarding drastically increasing probability of death.
 
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Is it really? Logically speaking to society old people are pretty much not only useless (there are some exceptions) but also drain on it as they get paid while not doing any work (pension) and much more likely suffering from various health problems (healthcare). Essentially society has to spend resources on them, while they aren't contributing to society and probably won't be for their remaining lives. Avoiding whole sentimental aspect and it's effects it would have more positive effects to society if old people have died due to factor above. Meaning old people life isn't of much importance in terms of utility. Rationally speaking old people would be of very low priority in crisis and you would leave them as last ones to save due to variety of factors such as explained in this post and my previous posts regarding drastically increasing probability of death.

I wonder if you'll feel the same way as you get older.
 
I wonder if you'll feel the same way as you get older.

It wouldn't really matter how I feel as it wouldn't change the truth and that would also most likely apply to old me. Just as now I recognize currently, that if someone would have a choice between saving my life and lifetime opportunity of research discovering of methods curing every caner (using cliche of extreme example to make it simple to understand), choosing cure for cancer would be much likely better choice for society than my life and logical choice for such individual to make .
 
Logically speaking to society old people are pretty much not only useless (there are some exceptions) but also drain on it as they get paid while not doing any work (pension) and much more likely suffering from various health problems (healthcare).

If we start out with a Nazi ideology and disregard the concept of human rights, then yes, we might "logically" arrive at your conclusion that everybody who can not "contribute" to society should be eliminated because they are a "drain on ressources". This is what led to Eugenics and the murder of millions who were deemed "unproductive".

I am happy that the majority of people does not think like you.
 
Is it really? Logically speaking to society old people are pretty much not only useless (there are some exceptions) but also drain on it as they get paid while not doing any work (pension) and much more likely suffering from various health problems (healthcare). Essentially society has to spend resources on them, while they aren't contributing to society and probably won't be for their remaining lives. Avoiding whole sentimental aspect and it's effects it would have more positive effects to society if old people have died due to factor above. Meaning old people life isn't of much importance in terms of utility. Rationally speaking old people would be of very low priority in crisis and you would leave them as last ones to save due to variety of factors such as explained in this post and my previous posts regarding drastically increasing probability of death.
Yes, it is actually a horrible attitude. Old people built today's society, and their pensions are essentially money they paid in taxes. Also, you can use the same "logic" to justify Social Darwinism and the exploitation of animals. It's a path to a society in which I don't believe many people want to live.
 
Is it really? Logically speaking to society old people are pretty much not only useless (there are some exceptions) but also drain on it as they get paid while not doing any work (pension) and much more likely suffering from various health problems (healthcare). Essentially society has to spend resources on them, while they aren't contributing to society and probably won't be for their remaining lives. Avoiding whole sentimental aspect and it's effects it would have more positive effects to society if old people have died due to factor above. Meaning old people life isn't of much importance in terms of utility. Rationally speaking old people would be of very low priority in crisis and you would leave them as last ones to save due to variety of factors such as explained in this post and my previous posts regarding drastically increasing probability of death.

Don't forget that it was the 'old people' that at one time were also young. Not only did they work and contribute to society but also bought up children who are in their twenties, thirties and forties today. Did young people contribute to society whilst they were in nappies ?

I may be also considered as old but certainly am not useless and still help others.

I think that it's called the circle of life.
 
It wouldn't really matter how I feel as it wouldn't change the truth and that would also most likely apply to old me. Just as now I recognize currently, that if someone would have a choice between saving my life and lifetime opportunity of research discovering of methods curing every caner (using cliche of extreme example to make it simple to understand), choosing cure for cancer would be much likely better choice for society than my life and logical choice for such individual to make .

You needn't "simplify" it for me. I understand your position. I happen to disagree with it.
 
Is it really? Logically speaking to society old people are pretty much not only useless (there are some exceptions) but also drain on it as they get paid while not doing any work (pension) and much more likely suffering from various health problems (healthcare). Essentially society has to spend resources on them, while they aren't contributing to society and probably won't be for their remaining lives. Avoiding whole sentimental aspect and it's effects it would have more positive effects to society if old people have died due to factor above. Meaning old people life isn't of much importance in terms of utility. Rationally speaking old people would be of very low priority in crisis and you would leave them as last ones to save due to variety of factors such as explained in this post and my previous posts regarding drastically increasing probability of death.
Why are you veg*n? The purely utilitarian arguments you present certainly don't allow for a vegan mindset - they call for exploitation of everyone who can usefully be exploited.
 
If we start out with a Nazi ideology and disregard the concept of human rights, then yes, we might "logically" arrive at your conclusion that everybody who can not "contribute" to society should be eliminated because they are a "drain on ressources". This is what led to Eugenics and the murder of millions who were deemed "unproductive".

I am happy that the majority of people does not think like you.

That's hardly nazi ideology (closer to utilitarianism), at best certain aspect of it that pretty every single functioning society shares (not counting substitutes existing in larger ones perhaps). Jingoism, extreme nationalism and ridiculous supremacist racial ideology were far greater factors in ideology to leading to it. It ain't like for an example Jews were unproductive in the first place, issue was they were too productive as a collection of individuals.

Yes, it is actually a horrible attitude. Old people built today's society, and their pensions are essentially money they paid in taxes. Also, you can use the same "logic" to justify Social Darwinism and the exploitation of animals. It's a path to a society in which I don't believe many people want to live.

That's sentimental attitude. Hammer could have built your house and yet when it breaks and you can't use it you most likely throw it away because you recognize a fact it's of no use to you anymore. You could but as you said it isn't society many would want to live in but that doesn't change fact that old people are "expendable", let's say of little use and in fact net negative in the present and future until they remain. You simply appeal to self-interest as reason against social Darwinism, not contradicting notion concerning old people.

Don't forget that it was the 'old people' that at one time were also young. Not only did they work and contribute to society but also bought up children who are in their twenties, thirties and forties today. Did young people contribute to society whilst they were in nappies ?

I may be also considered as old but certainly am not useless and still help others.

I think that it's called the circle of life.

As above, do you keep a broken hammer or throw it away? I doubt you or at least vast majority of people would consider past service of a hammer in terms of keeping it and focus on whether you could use it now and/or in the future. Young people are different case while they may not contribute in the present they most likely will in the future. To make simple to understand analogy children are like mineral deposit they don't produce anything at the moment but have potential in the future, adults are like mines they produce in the present but will run dry in the future and old people are like dried mines with no resources of value to produce left.

Aside from being an anecdote, even if true I've addressed it in my previous comment,

You needn't "simplify" it for me. I understand your position. I happen to disagree with it.

Why then ask if I would feel differently if I would become older in context of what I've said? Me growing older wouldn't change truth of what is being said as I've explained.

Why are you veg*n? The purely utilitarian arguments you present certainly don't allow for a vegan mindset - they call for exploitation of everyone who can usefully be exploited.

Well, I've my reasons but they aren't really relevant in this topic. However, I could think of many arguments on various basis as for which various types of utilitarians could be vegans .
 
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That's sentimental attitude.
I don't think "sentimental" is the correct term to describe the idea of state or social pensions which after all are implemented in most developed countries in the world. It's a fundamental part of the "social contract". It's simply what many people consider "fair", and fairness is a fundamental concept in any human society.

Hammer could have built your house and yet when it breaks and you can't use it you most likely throw it away because you recognize a fact it's of no use to you anymore.
So you are comparing old people to broken hammers.

You could but as you said it isn't society many would want to live in but that doesn't change fact that old people are "expendable", let's say of little use and in fact net negative in the present and future until they remain. You simply appeal to self-interest as reason against social Darwinism, not contradicting notion concerning old people.
Like I said, old people have already paid for their pensions through their work and their taxes. It's simply paying them back for what they have contributed. If we deliberately create conditions that kill them before their time, e.g. through action or inaction in relation of the coronavirus pandemic, then we are cheating them out of what is rightfully theirs. In other words, murder and theft on a grand scale.
 
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This entire thread reminds me of the episode of Star Trek The Next Generation entitled Half A Life. It involves a planet where people long ago agreed with Max here and instituted a policy that at the age of 60 everyone was put to death. In the episode it gets to the point that anyone who does not go along with it, even if it is for an important reason such as saving their entire species, they are shunned and any work they do after the age of 60 is ignored.
 
This entire thread reminds me of the episode of Star Trek The Next Generation entitled Half A Life. It involves a planet where people long ago agreed with Max here and instituted a policy that at the age of 60 everyone was put to death. In the episode it gets to the point that anyone who does not go along with it, even if it is for an important reason such as saving their entire species, they are shunned and any work they do after the age of 60 is ignored.
It also reminds me of a movie from the 1970s called Logan's Run that killed everybody at age 30.
 
I don't think "sentimental" is the correct term to describe the idea of state or social pensions which after all are implemented in most developed country in the world. It's a fundamental part of the "social contract". It's simply what many people consider "fair", and fairness is a fundamental concept in any human society.


So you are comparing old people to broken hammers.


Like I said, old people have already paid for their pensions through their work and their taxes. It's simply paying them back for what they have contributed. If we deliberately create conditions that kill them before their time, e.g. though action or inaction in relation of the coronavirus pandemic, then we are cheating them out of what is rightfully theirs. In other words, murder and theft on a grand scale.

Reason of old people building the country as argument against attitude acknowledging that old people are expendable is absolutely sentimental as it fits definition of the word, given you're emotionally appealing to the past events that have no bearing on the present or the future. Again, if you want bring self-interest as for pension system that's one, that's not however a reason to not consider old people expendable because in most cases they are net negative to society at that point. Fairness is hardly a concept with an agreed meaning, closest I think of is part of the definition regarding equally applied process (ie impartiality) and according to such meaning there could be many forms and process one could define as fair. Ask for an example a communist or a libertarian and you will hear different a reasons as for why pension system isn't fair.

Yes, both share commonality of formerly used tools but both are no longer of use.

That's sentimentality, they aren't paying now and won't in the future as such it has no relevance. One can't also murder by definition without act of killing someone, hence only only act either unjustifiable act of killing or illegal act of killing would constitute murder, as such murder can't be by inaction. As for theft it would depend on specifics of contract and whether family or person specified would gain remaining money or they were tied to a single life.Theft or not, doesn't counter notion that old people are expendable and net negative in their states. At best it's making an argument from self-interest for younger generation concerning future outcome, potential one in that case.
 
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