Many vegans are out of touch from reality

[majorbloodnok]

Why? Why do people want to be known as vegan if they're not? It seems more and more like it gives them reason to bash vegans when they're told they shouldn't be eating (eggs, honey, gelatin, carmine, whey.....meat) if they're vegan
Is being vegan suddenly so revered?

Speaking (as you know) as a non-vegan, I don’t want to try and suggest to you what the term “vegan” should mean. However, perhaps there’s a different approach.

I don’t like using pigeon-holes, but any label comes with an attached set of implications. We may not all agree on what veganism is in detail, but we all have a broadly similar understanding. If someone wants to call themselves vegan, they’re not breaking any law, but they are laying out publicly a set of standards by which they want to be defined. If their conscience is content with their brand of veganism, that’s the only real criterion that matters, but others are free to form their opinions of the person as well and will inevitably take the person’s actions into account.

Rather than telling someone they can’t do x if they are vegan or can’t call themselves vegan if they do x, perhaps it’s better to do a bit of Socratic questioning so the person themselves gets to realise their own inconsistencies. If they are basically honest, they’ll make adjustments. If not, no amount of telling them what they can or can’t do will make a difference.

Just my two penn’orth...

 

[silva]

Speaking (as you know) as a non-vegan, I don’t want to try and suggest to you what the term “vegan” should mean. However, perhaps there’s a different approach.

I don’t like using pigeon-holes, but any label comes with an attached set of implications. We may not all agree on what veganism is in detail, but we all have a broadly similar understanding. If someone wants to call themselves vegan, they’re not breaking any law, but they are laying out publicly a set of standards by which they want to be defined. If their conscience is content with their brand of veganism, that’s the only real criterion that matters, but others are free to form their opinions of the person as well and will inevitably take the person’s actions into account.

Rather than telling someone they can’t do x if they are vegan or can’t call themselves vegan if they do x, perhaps it’s better to do a bit of Socratic questioning so the person themselves gets to realise their own inconsistencies. If they are basically honest, they’ll make adjustments. If not, no amount of telling them what they can or can’t do will make a difference.

Just my two penn’orth...

I agree with you, however the issues I'm finding are people that are actively resisting what has been the accepted definition of vegan.

>The plant based movement for health--I so often find this group insisting foods well within vegan parameters are not vegan, such as sugar (and not because bone char), gluten, oils..... They feel because plant based is vegan they have the right to own it
>People who are deliberately consuming meats, or just certain meats, with the excuse of holidays, family members...
>Those who feel foods they see as ethically sourced should be seen as vegan, such as eggs from neighbors hens, or milk from a local business. These are from animals, and so far vegan is the one word that excludes using animals products when possible, therefore, they are not vegan, and I can't any reason to be okay with people insisting that they be included

As I see it, there are already exemptions in the reference of "possible and practical"
Those living paycheck to paycheck. Caregivers. Unforeseen events even. Partaking in non vegan things isn't going to mean you're not vegan, but arguing about what is vegan I think does.

 

[silva]

From my own experience in knowingly eating non vegan things is being invited to a function and told they will have vegan foods. I show up and find the burgers or other, have eggs or dairy things. For me the acknowledgement and attempt at inclusion takes far greater priority than my own personal purity, as I am not allergic to these things. For me I can get over by products and pick a later time to talk about when I won't feel as if I'm ungrateful. Actual animal things, meat, cheese eggs--I couldn't do because I they would make me sick, one way or another, and I would not expect this to be true of all vegans

 

[Andy_T]

But are transitioning vegans not vegan?

No, they are … transitioning to veganism.

 

[ewomack]

How is it that us happy vegans so rarely meet other vegans yet everyone else seems to know a hundred vegans who are jerks?

That's a good question. Right now, I don't really know any other vegans. That might be because I stopped using the word and no longer intentionally seek out the company of vegans, though I keep eating "mostly" vegan. Maybe a lot of even happy vegans have retreated into silence, like myself, due to some of the nonsense the word can inspire? The vegans that I knew couldn't accept that I would even consider eating meat, even a few times a year. So it was hard to keep those friendships alive, sadly. In the end, if that's all our friendship relied on, a few plates of meat, then they weren't great friends anyway.

I remembered another experience from a few years ago. I was in San Fransisco on a business/pleasure trip and there was a very large animal rights demonstration on Market Street. They had nasty videos of processing plants, people in cages, signs, flyers, chants, etc. It was pretty intense. I stopped to take some pictures and a young woman approached me and said "I see you were taking pictures." I couldn't tell whether she was suspicious, curious, or happy. I told her that I supported her cause and the message, but made the mistake of telling her the truth that I ate meat a few times a year. I never claimed to be a vegan. She then started in on me, saying "can't you find alternatives to meat for those few times? Why do you have to eat meat at all?" I didn't feel the need to go into detail with her, so I just said "hopefully someday I can get there, but if everybody ate as much meat as I did there probably wouldn't be an industry." It wasn't good enough for her. So I started asking her about her involvement in the movement and found out that she had never even heard of Peter Singer's book "Animal Liberation," which many people credit for boosting the animal rights movement in the 1970s (probably long before she was born). It might be a little dated now, but it's a pretty important work (and Singer now doesn't claim to follow veganism). After that, she let me go. I didn't want to walk away from her, because I did truly support her cause. It was strange to feel so distant to someone who I agreed with on so much. Yes, I should eat absolutely no meat. But, honestly, if everyone did eat as much meat as I did, the industry would crumble. Because I ate even a few plates of meat a year, I sensed that she still saw me as "the enemy," as someone who needed "a talking to." I may not be 100% vegan, but I'm far from "the enemy." I think many people like me probably exist, people on the fringe, "almost there" types, who fully support a no-meat lifestyle, but for some reason just can't make it 100% and who feel excluded from the vegan movement, a movement that they're maybe 90% or more into. The vegan and animal rights movements should embrace these people at least as potential "allies."

 

[Sax]

How is it that us happy vegans so rarely meet other vegans yet everyone else seems to know a hundred vegans who are jerks?

I wrote that as a rhetorical question, thinking cognitive bias was the obvious answer.

On second thought a lot, maybe most, of the people who go vegan don't stick to it longterm. Therefore when someone meets a vegan they will be disproportionately encountering new vegans. New vegans - the ones that aren't too timid to identify themselves - are usually aggressive and clumsy in their outreach.

I still think cognitive bias is the reason people with bad things to say about veganism think they've met tons of vegans but I can see how they vegans they have met would be disproportionately aggressive, judgemental or rude.

So....tell new vegans to shut up? Hah. I guess vegans are in a tough position. Most minority groups have that minority status passed down through family or by joining an IRL community so they can model the behavior of their "elders". In most cases vegans don't have that. And while I support more aggressive tactics when it comes to activism that shouldn't be taken as a model for how to behave in any situation outside the context of activism...ie with friends, family, coworkers, or strangers you meet in daily life. That's where a more moderate, inclusive and encouraging tone is valuable but that can be achieved without compromising on principles or treating them like they can't handle the slightest push back.

 

[Roy R]

A friend of mine once asked me if I was still on 'that fad' !

My God daughter went on a round the world sailing trip, she told me a story of a 'vegan' who made their life difficult when it came to the meal preps, but they accommodated her (rightly so, if that was me and they gave me grief I would have just made my own food every day). My God-daughter was also part of the kitchen team who is not vegan.

At the end of the trip they all went to celebrate at a restaurant, and this vegan caved in because she saw everyone else ordering the most expensive steaks/meals etc. and ordered a meat dish. Everyone rolled their eyes.

I tried explaining to my God daughter that this is the problem with certain 'vegans' as it makes the word Vegan meaningless and makes other vegans look pathetic in the eyes of people who consume tortured/murdered animals and thus they possibly think it's ok to carry on doing what they are doing because vegans are all the same.

I think flexitarian is a word that should be used for situations like ewomack's but that just translates to vegetarian between meals surely lol. Besides, as we all know veganism isn't a diet. Sometimes it's just easier to say vegan food when out and about - I'll admit.

I am grateful @ewomack that you are reducing suffering and it is great that you are refraining from using that word. i would also be interested in why you couldn't sustain your true veganism just out of curiosity and education.

 

[majorbloodnok]

...
On second thought a lot, maybe most, of the people who go vegan don't stick to it longterm.
...

Do you have a source of statistics on that topic? I had assumed - perhaps incorrectly - that most people who last long enough with a plant-based diet to stop thinking of themselves as "transitioning" will continue ad infinitum unless there are compelling reasons to turn back (such as specific health issues).

 

[ewomack]

Any accurate long term statistics on veganism are probably difficult to obtain. Different sources would likely skew the data to favor their own sides, as usual with polls or surveys. In my own experience, I have gone vegan and reverted back at least twice in my life.

I also know at least three people who were once strictly vegan or vegetarian and who now eat meat. They each had their own reasons for doing so. One had a child and the child became friends with another meat eating family, so it became very awkward when the friend's family invited them over for a meat dinner. It then happened again with a different friend, then again, and then again. So, before they knew it, they were eating meat again. Another one fell in love with a man who wasn't vegan, so she found herself slowly eating meat again over time. The third one ran into some social pressures, I never did get all of the details, and he capitulated. I think he was worried about fitting in with a specific group of people. None of these people went back to fully carnivorous lives, but they did begin eating meat a lot more than previously.

It's easy to dismiss these people as not committed enough, which is probably true, but the basic theme of these stories is that some people have trouble keeping to veganism if it begins to conflict with their social lives. I don't have any data on this, but I would suspect that many people don't even consider going vegan due to social stigma alone. Or they try it and their friends or family back away, so they give it up. Going totally vegan and staying with it can have big social consequences for some people. In such cases, it's probably very hard to convince people back. I'm almost positive that the three people I mentioned above will very likely not become vegans again. They have cut down on meat, though, and they likely eat far less than the average person. But they couldn't stick to veganism, for reasons some will consider understandable and others might consider unforgivable.

 

[silva]

Do you have a source of statistics on that topic? I had assumed - perhaps incorrectly - that most people who last long enough with a plant-based diet to stop thinking of themselves as "transitioning" will continue ad infinitum unless there are compelling reasons to turn back (such as specific health issues).

Health issues are the lead cause people state when they go back to animal products-either just eggs or full blown meat. I can completely understand those who have many food allergies that cause it to be very difficult to stay plant based--but they seem to do really well!
It's those that give vague responses of 'not working for them' and never offer any kind of reason other than a plant based diet doesn't work for everyone. They typically go silent when you question their diet or give suggestions. At least what I've come across, and from many who've come here.
I do understand what Toms saying though. Those just turning to vegan often have a very heightened sense of guilt and despair.Those new to turning plant based for health are often swayed by shocking documentaries with claims of eggs as bad as cigarettes. Both are subject to fail when the reality takes over and their emotions lessen

 

[silva]

Any accurate long term statistics on veganism are probably difficult to obtain. Different sources would likely skew the data to favor their own sides, as usual with polls or surveys. In my own experience, I have gone vegan and reverted back at least twice in my life.

I also know at least three people who were once strictly vegan or vegetarian and who now eat meat. They each had their own reasons for doing so. One had a child and the child became friends with another meat eating family, so it became very awkward when the friend's family invited them over for a meat dinner. It then happened again with a different friend, then again, and then again. So, before they knew it, they were eating meat again. Another one fell in love with a man who wasn't vegan, so she found herself slowly eating meat again over time. The third one ran into some social pressures, I never did get all of the details, and he capitulated. I think he was worried about fitting in with a specific group of people. None of these people went back to fully carnivorous lives, but they did begin eating meat a lot more than previously.

It's easy to dismiss these people as not committed enough, which is probably true, but the basic theme of these stories is that some people have trouble keeping to veganism if it begins to conflict with their social lives. I don't have any data on this, but I would suspect that many people don't even consider going vegan due to social stigma alone. Or they try it and their friends or family back away, so they give it up. Going totally vegan and staying with it can have big social consequences for some people. In such cases, it's probably very hard to convince people back. I'm almost positive that the three people I mentioned above will very likely not become vegans again. They have cut down on meat, though, and they likely eat far less than the average person. But they couldn't stick to veganism, for reasons some will consider understandable and others might consider unforgivable.

I was vegetarian on/off in my teens and then until I became pregnant. I was very healthy, but caved in to question whether it was alright raise a baby. I kinda struggled with being veg in their early years, and I suppose we'd have been called 'flexitarian' if people used that expression then.
They were teens when I quit meant and then animal products. I felt so wronged, and while one wishes he was raised vegan.
I couldn't have cared less about what people thought of my own choices, but it is so much harder when dealing with your children.
Lots of things are hard when around people who don't think the same. Being an atheist in a religious town, having a sexual identity people don't accept, being liberal around right wingers, POC in bigoted areas, heck just being a woman with a career

 

[silva]

After writing the above I realized all my issues with staying vegan were caused by omnivores
I didn't know anyone vegan, and the vegetarians I knew didnt have kids, or they were already older and a mixed household like mine became

 

[Sax]

Do you have a source of statistics on that topic? I had assumed - perhaps incorrectly - that most people who last long enough with a plant-based diet to stop thinking of themselves as "transitioning" will continue ad infinitum unless there are compelling reasons to turn back (such as specific health issues).

No just my intuition. However the statistics work out every longterm vegan was once a new vegan but not every new vegan becomes a longterm vegan. The number of people who have been new vegans will always outweigh those who've stuck to it longterm.

 

[majorbloodnok]

No just my intuition. However the statistics work out every longterm vegan was once a new vegan but not every new vegan becomes a longterm vegan. The number of people who have been new vegans will always outweigh those who've stuck to it longterm.

Not sure I’d go that far. Yes, the number of continuers will always be fewer than starters, but it doesn’t follow that most are lapsers; there’s a big difference between a 90% success rate and a 10%. Of course, I also can’t dismiss your intuition either since I have no valid frame of reference, but I do think I’ll take issue with the logic of your explanation. No offence meant, but I‘ll keep looking for something more watertight.

 

[Danielle]

I'm cool with being in the minority, better than going along with something I disagree with. I'm not going to try to change anyone's minds anymore, bc it will just frustrate me and nothing will happen anyways. I think it's what happens to new vegans because they get motivated to try to convince other people to go vegan as well, but in my experience it's not worth it.
I am vegan because it hurts my heart to see an animal suffer, I don't want to be the cause of their suffering. I even feel for animals that people would consider pests, like rats and mice. I have pet rats, too. Btw thought of this song.

 

[Roy R]

I'm cool with being in the minority, better than going along with something I disagree with. I'm not going to try to change anyone's minds anymore, bc it will just frustrate me and nothing will happen anyways. I think it's what happens to new vegans because they get motivated to try to convince other people to go vegan as well, but in my experience it's not worth it.
I am vegan because it hurts my heart to see an animal suffer, I don't want to be the cause of their suffering. I even feel for animals that people would consider pests, like rats and mice. I have pet rats, too. Btw thought of this song.

I love Daryl Hall & John Oates but I remember watching an interview with John Oates where he was talking about how he use to hunt small animals to sell for their skins to make money - it broke my heart - I wish I had bookmarked that video, however he now has some sort of Lima animal rescue type place. Watching Daryl's House makes me cringe a bit when they do the cooking bit :-(
I've put my Eric Clapton cd's, Steve Windwood (gutted), Pink Floyd (Roger Waters at least), Bryan Ferry albums and various others on a separate shelf now as I've found out they are avid hunters.

 

[Danielle]

I love Daryl Hall & John Oates but I remember watching an interview with John Oates where he was talking about how he use to hunt small animals to sell for their skins to make money - it broke my heart - I wish I had bookmarked that video, however he now has some sort of Lima animal rescue type place. Watching Daryl's House makes me cringe a bit when they do the cooking bit :-(
I've put my Eric Clapton cd's, Steve Windwood (gutted), Pink Floyd (Roger Waters at least), Bryan Ferry albums and various others on a separate shelf now as I've found out they are avid hunters.

That would limit so many things. I think I can appreciate someone's music even if I don't agree with their view on things.

 

[Lou]

I have found some vegan groups to be pretty judgemental, and vegan comments on a lot of farming posts leave a bit to be desired because they tend to reinforce negative stereotypes of vegan.....

You'll probably find this interesting. I did!

OpEd: I'm The Target Of 'Angry Vegan' Ire And Truth Be Told, They Have A Point, But It’s Not The Answer

 

[Lou]

You'll probably find this interesting. I did!

OpEd: I'm The Target Of 'Angry Vegan' Ire And Truth Be Told, They Have A Point, But It’s Not The Answer

The author of the above article is interesting in his own right. Brian Bateman

Brian co-founded the Reducetarian Foundation in 2015 after coining the term “reducetarian” to describe a person who is deliberately reducing their consumption of meat. He is now the author of The Reducetarian Solution, The Reducetarian Cookbook, and Meat Me Halfway, and is the lead producer of the documentary version of Meat Me Halfway. He is a regular contributor to Fast Company, Entrepreneur, and Forbes, and his writings have appeared in The Atlantic, The Los Angeles Times, and The Washington Post, among others.​

​

I imagine those of you who hate all these different kinds of labels will hate this new one, too. Though I kind of like it. Not sure how exactly it differs from Flexatarian. I guess it's about the environmental motives.

 

[Graeme M]

You'll probably find this interesting. I did!

Yeah. I've read his book, a while ago now. I broadly agree with his tack, though I don't think he extends this thinking into other areas of human/animal interactions. But I have forgotten most of his argument. I think I went to look at his website and FB page a little while back and it doesn't get much activity so I don't know how much this has taken off.

I skimmed this current thread again and it's interesting that there remains two broad points of view. 1. A vegan doesn't eat *some* meat and you cannot be a vegan unless you go all the way and 2. We shouldn't be so judgmental about people who are on the way/transitioning/part time. I lean to the latter.

I still believe that veganism isn't even a lifestyle, it's simply everyday ethics extended to include other species whenever we can. And I observe that viewed like that, no-one can make any choice to act in ways that respects other animals and not be consistent with veganism. So when a farmer undertakes to maximise welfare for his livestock or someone supports new laws that prevent animal use in circuses etc, these people are being consistent with veganism as an ethical concept. So the way I see it, most people are already onside, all that is in question is the extent they are willing to go. And right there is ample room for furthering this idea by educating, encouraging, supporting and leading by example. The idea that people should be judged and shamed for not doing enough should be rejected, as should the idea that someone needs to "go vegan". More can be achieved with encouragement rather than judgement. And being open to the idea that people may always eat meat or use animals.

I propose the idea that we don't particularly need people to be vegans but rather we seek broader social acceptance of the idea that we should act more justly towards other species, and then leave it up to people to do what they feel comfortable with. @Lou pointed out the great progress recently in regard to justice for other species, but I remain sceptical this came about because of "veganism" as popularly understood. It most likely happened because those advocating justice managed to convince enough of the community. I would reserve the label "vegan" for those who both seek to behave justly towards other species AND advocate in favour. Everyone else just is everyone else.

Did I share that idea here before? I can't remember, but here's the link again for anyone interested: Is it Time to Focus More on People and Less on Vegans?