Issues with Veganism

Sproutskies

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As someone who has been apart of this movement for about a year and a half (then just had a relapse on a slice of cheese pizza + recommitted again to being at least fully plant based) just would like to go over something that has been bugging me about veganism and how it seems like there are many vegans creating more struggle, generating a toxic amount of shame, and ultimately less progress in the long run for converting people/making it a sustainable choice.

Love non-violent protest and that there are those apart of the community willing to risk their liberties to save these animals from the slaughterhouse and do something that sends a message to the meat/dairy industry.

With that in mind.. There is this massive vibe of emotional dis-ease and shaming others for their everyday choices, which although may be rooted in real truth and come from a place of good intention. It will certainly never, in any universe, reach the mass majority of our population who are not at all motivated by shame or don't possess the same empathetic capacity that many of you guys have. Also when you tell someone how they should feel and it differs from their actual experience, then that becomes an immediate ticket for them to write you off.

Many people/friends that are vegan just come from this authoritarian place ruled by high emotionality.. and enact very little change to try and gain power and influence in their own lives. How can you win a battle when you're personally so stuck in the ego trip, sadness, and high emotionality of your own life?

When you come from a place of getting angry, or protesting by showing dramatic pictures on the street (no matter how real), or sending a message that you people are "less than me for not eating my way" (no matter how rooted in truth it is) you will more often create those that will want to consume more meat in the general population and only exert influence on those that actually are in touch with that reality in some way already (if they think they should feel shame).

Some of the people I interact with in my life are sport hunters.
The only reason that I can sit down and talk with them about eating vegan/plant based is that I don't impose any obvious form of judgement. Instead my goal is to influence them much like the people that converted me.

We will never impact others from this snooty place of contempt or just assuming that they are so lost that they can't realize the truth. I used to be a butcher and animal fabricator at one point of my life. I never would have given it a go if it wasn't for the complete non-judgement of a friend.

How can we make progress at the rate we are going at now? Doesn't it seem like aspects of veganism are failing the animals and us?
 
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Sproutskies

Sproutskies

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The organization "Vegan Outreach" seems to have a good approach to introducing veganism to people: Programs - Vegan Outreach .
There are positives and yet the slaughters continue at such a high rate and PETA, one of the largest vegan advocacy groups, is alienating the general population in many ways. The issues still stand if you can't say that we have been able to move progress so very far over generations, from my perspective. Factory farms are not going away until vegans and veganism acquires more power by catering to the general population in some apparent way to the ever day consumer. Those who have the largest bank accounts will have the greatest say in controlling/influencing the population. This is at least the case in the US with free enterprise and a system that values short-term value-creation over saving lives and nature.
 

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Factory farms are not going away until vegans and veganism acquires more power by catering to the general population in some apparent way to the ever day consumer.
.
Yes, I think this is the key. People are willing to reduce their meat consumption, if delicious and affordable alternatives are available. You might consider a career with Beyond Meat, Memphis Meats, or one of the other veg meat and cultured meat companies.
.
 

silva

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As someone who has been apart of this movement for about a year and a half (then just had a relapse on a slice of cheese pizza + recommitted again to being at least fully plant based) just would like to go over something that has been bugging me about veganism and how it seems like there are many vegans creating more struggle, generating a toxic amount of shame, and ultimately less progress in the long run for converting people/making it a sustainable choice.

Love non-violent protest and that there are those apart of the community willing to risk their liberties to save these animals from the slaughterhouse and do something that sends a message to the meat/dairy industry.

With that in mind.. There is this massive vibe of emotional dis-ease and shaming others for their everyday choices, which although may be rooted in real truth and come from a place of good intention. It will certainly never, in any universe, reach the mass majority of our population who are not at all motivated by shame or don't possess the same empathetic capacity that many of you guys have. Also when you tell someone how they should feel and it differs from their actual experience, then that becomes an immediate ticket for them to write you off.

Many people/friends that are vegan just come from this authoritarian place ruled by high emotionality.. and enact very little change to try and gain power and influence in their own lives. How can you win a battle when you're personally so stuck in the ego trip, sadness, and high emotionality of your own life?

When you come from a place of getting angry, or protesting by showing dramatic pictures on the street (no matter how real), or sending a message that you people are "less than me for not eating my way" (no matter how rooted in truth it is) you will more often create those that will want to consume more meat in the general population and only exert influence on those that actually are in touch with that reality in some way already (if they think they should feel shame).

Some of the people I interact with in my life are sport hunters.
The only reason that I can sit down and talk with them about eating vegan/plant based is that I don't impose any obvious form of judgement. Instead my goal is to influence them much like the people that converted me.

We will never impact others from this snooty place of contempt or just assuming that they are so lost that they can't realize the truth. I used to be a butcher and animal fabricator at one point of my life. I never would have given it a go if it wasn't for the complete non-judgement of a friend.

How can we make progress at the rate we are going at now? Doesn't it seem like aspects of veganism are failing the animals and us?
You're really being quite judgmental! While these may be the images presented in news clips or PETA ads, I don't find vegans or plant based folk to display this kind of arrogance. I actually find more vegan apologists now a days, ready to quash anyone for pointing out what someone thought was vegan actually contained egg- like how dare they! 🙄

I find I can talk about things like animal testing, or my version of whatever recipe is being discussed pretty easily with all but people that aren't worth talking to anyway. The people I know that hunt really are their own version of conversationalists, and really do have more respect for wildlife and environment than most. They respect my beliefs, but we don't get into it
 
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Sproutskies

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You're really being quite judgmental! While these may be the images presented in news clips or PETA ads, I don't find vegans or plant based folk to display this kind of arrogance. I actually find more vegan apologists now a days, ready to quash anyone for pointing out what someone thought was vegan actually contained egg- like how dare they! 🙄

I find I can talk about things like animal testing, or my version of whatever recipe is being discussed pretty easily with all but people that aren't worth talking to anyway. The people I know that hunt really are their own version of conversationalists, and really do have more respect for wildlife and environment than most. They respect my beliefs, but we don't get into it
It's my experience with so many people that go to the meetups around the lifestyle. Many of the conversations lead to how much emotional baggage there is around their hate for non-vegans and the catch of that they really are not doing anything but diet or getting angry to try and solve the issue. It's like it you want to complain to me or show judgement then don't wonder why so many people that I know, that are non-vegans, perceive us in a certain negative light. So much more of the hate against vegans are from the 20% that are advocating and getting out of the house are not realizing many of the social impacts of judgmental words and hate expressed towards someone who could just be welcomed whether they eat dead animals or not. That we are not so sensitive or show so much weakness when trying to get into an argument with anyone who is not us.
 
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Sproutskies

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Yes, I think this is the key. People are willing to reduce their meat consumption, if delicious and affordable alternatives are available. You might consider a career with Beyond Meat, Memphis Meats, or one of the other veg meat and cultured meat companies.
.
Good idea!
 

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As someone who has been apart of this movement for about a year and a half (then just had a relapse on a slice of cheese pizza + recommitted again to being at least fully plant based) just would like to go over something that has been bugging me about veganism and how it seems like there are many vegans creating more struggle, generating a toxic amount of shame, and ultimately less progress in the long run for converting people/making it a sustainable choice.

Love non-violent protest and that there are those apart of the community willing to risk their liberties to save these animals from the slaughterhouse and do something that sends a message to the meat/dairy industry.

With that in mind.. There is this massive vibe of emotional dis-ease and shaming others for their everyday choices, which although may be rooted in real truth and come from a place of good intention. It will certainly never, in any universe, reach the mass majority of our population who are not at all motivated by shame or don't possess the same empathetic capacity that many of you guys have. Also when you tell someone how they should feel and it differs from their actual experience, then that becomes an immediate ticket for them to write you off.

Many people/friends that are vegan just come from this authoritarian place ruled by high emotionality.. and enact very little change to try and gain power and influence in their own lives. How can you win a battle when you're personally so stuck in the ego trip, sadness, and high emotionality of your own life?

When you come from a place of getting angry, or protesting by showing dramatic pictures on the street (no matter how real), or sending a message that you people are "less than me for not eating my way" (no matter how rooted in truth it is) you will more often create those that will want to consume more meat in the general population and only exert influence on those that actually are in touch with that reality in some way already (if they think they should feel shame).

Some of the people I interact with in my life are sport hunters.
The only reason that I can sit down and talk with them about eating vegan/plant based is that I don't impose any obvious form of judgement. Instead my goal is to influence them much like the people that converted me.

We will never impact others from this snooty place of contempt or just assuming that they are so lost that they can't realize the truth. I used to be a butcher and animal fabricator at one point of my life. I never would have given it a go if it wasn't for the complete non-judgement of a friend.

How can we make progress at the rate we are going at now? Doesn't it seem like aspects of veganism are failing the animals and us?
While I agree that shaming and judgment don't work on everyone, a blunt expression of what happens in slaughterhouses, for example, can get people thinking and is sometimes necessary to motivate people. It shouldn't be sugarcoated. I think people need to know exactly what goes on there, whether they want to or not. The truth often hurts, but once digested it can move people to make change, even if it's not for the animals. That's evident by the continuing rise and popularity of plant-based foods. Twenty years ago, you were lucky to find soy milk in the store. Now there are tons of options for plant-based milks and proteins, not to mention the abundance of dairy substitutes.. And this stuff is available in so many stores now, not just health food stores.

My veg*n journey began with health concerns. I'd started by giving up beef. And at a party, a veg*n friend looked at the chicken on my plate and remarked: If you knew how that chicken got to your plate, you'd never eat it again. I admit was taken aback, but I'm guessing this friend knew I had veg*n tendencies and maybe wanted to give me a push. She knew me, and thus knew that'd I probably read up on it, which I did. It took a while (I blame cheese), but today, my motivation for going vegan is for the animals first. Any other benefit (health, etc.) is a happy extra.
 

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Wouldn't worry so much about other vegans, imperfect people can go vegan too. If you don't like their attitude because they're too judgmental then you can be a non judgmental vegan yourself, up to you.
The reason why people can be like that is because they're passionate about veganism and want to convince others to go vegan. I think its a waste of time to try to change anyone but yourself. Doesn't change the fact that animals suffer in the slaughter houses.
I'm guessing you have the same chance of convincing some vegans to not to vent or try to convince others as they have of getting other people to go vegan. People will be who they are.
 
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People will be who they are.
Yes and No.
First off just talk to some vegans. My guess is that a majority of vegans were convinced to become vegan by something external to themselves. For me it was a newspaper article. For others it was a documentary, a friend, or in some cases a doctor.

I also don't think people become vegan overnight. its more like cracking open a window and letting some fresh air and sunlight in. once a person has their eyes opened a little its possible to start seeing things in a different light.

There are vegans who despite their best intentions actually harm the movement. Mostly thru ignorance or some other fixable limitation.

There are vegans, like Pete Singer, who believe that a "real vegan" IS a animal rights advocate. We can only do so much by ourselves. but if we can get 10 people to each eat 10% less meat we can do twice as much.

But being an advocate can be tricky. Like I said, done poorly it can actually do harm. There actually is a bit of salesmanship involved. there are any number of articles and videos on how to be an effective advocate.
 

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I feel many people shut out knowing just how bad farming animals is for all aspects, because they would feel guilt if they went vegan and then had a set back and ate meat. The best thing would be for people to acknowledge the horrors and cut back, not even think 'vegan' or vegetarian, just make more meals without animal involvement.

I hate the whole personal purity so many vegans have--it isn't about YOU. If I hadn't given up that attitude I would be eating meat and cheese now.
I truly do respect the idea of 'vegan intent', as long as the reality of what vegan means is respected
 

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I feel many people shut out knowing just how bad farming animals is for all aspects, because they would feel guilt if they went vegan and then had a set back and ate meat. The best thing would be for people to acknowledge the horrors and cut back, not even think 'vegan' or vegetarian, just make more meals without animal involvement.

I hate the whole personal purity so many vegans have--it isn't about YOU. If I hadn't given up that attitude I would be eating meat and cheese now.
I truly do respect the idea of 'vegan intent', as long as the reality of what vegan means is respected
Agreed. However many omnivores, paleo, keto, and carnivore humans have an attitude of superiority, its' not simply some vegans.
Listen to others talk about their choices and hear the arrogance and criticisms of veganism and plant foods. Omnivorism of over
7 BILLION humans is shoved in our faces at every turn in every way, many humans forget this fact and call vegans, the minority, arrogant
and high minded. 250 years ago abolitionists were hated because they told the truth of the horror of enslaving african humans.
However vegan is the only dietary choice that is also a commitment to non-violence and health. All others are simply about diet
and food. Cheers.
 
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Agreed. However many omnivores, paleo, keto, and carnivore humans have an attitude of superiority, its' not simply some vegans.
Listen to others talk about their choices and hear the arrogance and criticisms of veganism and plant foods. Omnivorism of over
7 BILLION humans is shoved in our faces at every turn in every way, many humans forget this fact and call vegans, the minority, arrogant
and high minded. 250 years ago abolitionists were hated because they told the truth of the horror of enslaving african humans.
However vegan is the only dietary choice that is also a commitment to non-violence and health. All others are simply about diet
and food. Cheers.
Although I certainly agree with you on this, I think that this omnivore attitude comes from being marketed to and conditioned and not really coming from a place of any sort of strength. If we all set the example with a higher level of acceptance for the human being (no matter what they chose) it would possibly have a greater effect on their mind to suggest veganism in a more subtle way. It's a like a trojan horse where if you meet someone with resistance and judgement.. you will never influence from within the enemy camp.
 
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You make good points. Everyone has a right to their choices and no one wants to be judged or treated as if they are wrong.
We all want to be accepted. When we feel judged we get defensive and throw criticisms against another, and defend our own
choices at the same time.
What do you suggest as "subtle ways" to suggest veganism?.
Also, I have no enemies and hopefully I am no enemy to someone else. There are however omnivore humans who do not want to learn
the truths about their eating of animals. And I understand their are vegans who do not want to hear that there are problems
in becoming and staying vegan. We all have something to learn from each other. Namaste'.
 
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You make good points. Everyone has a right to their choices and no one wants to be judged or treated as if they are wrong.
We all want to be accepted. When we feel judged we get defensive and throw criticisms against another, and defend our own
choices at the same time.
What do you suggest as "subtle ways" to suggest veganism?.
Also, I have no enemies and hopefully I am no enemy to someone else. There are however omnivore humans who do not want to learn
the truths about their eating of animals. And I understand their are vegans who do not want to hear that there are problems
in becoming and staying vegan. We all have something to learn from each other. Namaste'.
Yeah, enemy is a strong word. Maybe it's more of like someone with an addiction. Only they can walk the path of recovery + the majority of people will fail when factors like personal shame get amplified by their lack of support or social pressures from others to go back to the drug. I think with anything it would come down to building a relationship on the basis of other things first.. and then maybe from that place of confiding, then we can give people smaller doses of the truth combined with talking more about the benefits in your own life. Especially guys have been conditioned from a young age to think that eating meat makes you a man and that you are going to lose respect from others when you go against the grain. The more examples that they have of the opposite belief will create an open space to start to let go of the baggage.. Everyone's different and probably a lot of creative solutions to start to move society. Namaste 🌱
 

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I don't know, maybe I don't know enough vegans in real life yet...but this superior attitude is something I have yet to really encounter in a real life situation. I have two very close friends who are vegetarian, and I have to say that they cooked meat for me (and their kids) when I came to visit without any judgement for years. The one time I can think of being shamed by a vegan was (years ago) when I was helping cook sausages at a BBQ and I wasn't paying enough attention to them - she noted that "that use to be a cow" to point out that I could be treating the meat with more respect and frankly I thought that was a fair crack. Veganism has a perception problem to be sure, but I personally think the problem largely comes from the culture you described Sproutskies - where people are conditioned from an early age to see eating meat as normal and healthy (and anything outside of that as abnormal). I had carer take me to a vegan market, he remarked that these people didn't seem to have horns, obviously he was joking - but I think it was his perception of what veganism was vs the reality was quite different. I guess the question becomes: is the negative perception of vegans created by vegans themselves or is it externally created? From my perspective, it's largely externally created (for a variety of reasons). But I do hear, Sproutskies, that your experience has been different. So, I don't know what the answer is.
 
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Yeah, enemy is a strong word. Maybe it's more of like someone with an addiction. Only they can walk the path of recovery + the majority of people will fail when factors like personal shame get amplified by their lack of support or social pressures from others to go back to the drug. I think with anything it would come down to building a relationship on the basis of other things first.. and then maybe from that place of confiding, then we can give people smaller doses of the truth combined with talking more about the benefits in your own life. Especially guys have been conditioned from a young age to think that eating meat makes you a man and that you are going to lose respect from others when you go against the grain. The more examples that they have of the opposite belief will create an open space to start to let go of the baggage.. Everyone's different and probably a lot of creative solutions to start to move society. Namaste 🌱
Thank you for your thoughts. Humans get addicted to many substances and yes most humans fail when they have to give up their addictions. Veganism
is just one of those habits humans can try (eating animals) to overcome but not always succeed at.
Society likes conformity and hates change, and those who stray from what society calls normal get singled out. It is much easier for females to become vegan because vegetables and plants are typically considered more feminine, and meat more masculine and attached in society as making one a man. Also females are allowed to be sensitive and emotional as well, but guys get judged for doing this as "weak"...how sad. I admire vegan males who have the strength to follow their hearts and make a commitment to empathy and compassion. Mic the vegan, vegan doctors, Earthling Ed, Gary Yurovsky, Patrick Baboumian, and others are wonderful role models for other guys.
Also, omnivores often say vegans have a 'superior" attitude because vegans tell the truth and reveal what omnivore humans do not want to
acknowledge or change, the cruelty we inflict on the voiceless in order to eat them. Surely the abolitionists who opposed human slavery were called
'superior" (and many other worse names) when they spoke up and out about the inhumanity of enslaving other humans.
Thank you for what you are, namaste' rachel.
 

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What do you mean? They look fine on my end
Huh??!!
on my screen her text starts a new line in the middle of sentences.
I just tried something. I if zoom out a few notches it becomes normal looking.