Keeping a pet: vegan or non-vegan?

[Tom L.]

@Brian W. That's a valid concern. I think it has to be addressed on a case-by-case basis. Most recently (since the beginning of 1993), I've adopted and been personally responsible for the care of cats, rabbits, gerbils, one Syrian hamster, 5 goldfishes, and 4 Rosy Red minnows.

I've found that cats are unpredictable. My first cat was apparently happy as an only cat. The next two I adopted (Riley and Phil, a month apart) hung out together and liked each other (although they often had smackdowns which usually started when they tried to groom each other and each wanted to groom rather than be groomed). I eventually adopted another cat, who got along better with Phil than with Riley, but everybody basically did fine.

Syrian hamsters can be notoriously anti-social with others of their own species, and I didn't try to find him a companion of his own kind. I adopted my 5 female gerbils in 2 groups about a month apart; they had originally been in the same cage, but the two times I tried to reintroduce them to each other, they started fighting so I immediately separated them and kept them in separate cages.

My first rabbit had been in a cage by herself, and appeared to be happy as an only rabbit. After she passed, I adopted two unrelated males (Hans, a mini-Rex, and Franz, a Dutch dwarf) from the same cage in the shelter. They were getting on each others' nerves when Franz started to become sexually mature (he had been too young for neutering when I first adopted them), but after first Hans and then Franz were neutered they spent most of their time together (although they each had their own cage).

My goldfishes liked to shoal together. I'm not sure about the minnows, but they definitely didn't fight with each other.

So you can make general assumptions about different species, but usually you have yto take it on a case-by-case basis.

 

[g0rph]

My main concern in the case of genuinely caring people owning animals is whether or not those animals get suitable companionship with their own kind.

Ours gets 3 days a week at Doggy-Dagis. Seems to enjoy it

 

[Lou]

I don't have a dog in this fight...
oh wait, that idiom is not animal friendly.

Starting over... I don't have a car in this race. I don't have any pets. I even gave away my tropical fish.

However, IMHO, I think that rescuing an animal and sharing your life and home with it for the rest of its life - is one of the most compassionate, generous acts one can do.

But I think all of us recognize the other side of the coin. This author puts it into words.

The case against pets: is it time to give up our cats and dogs?

A growing number of people argue that owning pets is unethical - and that animals can never really have a good life in a human home

www.theguardian.com

 

[deadknight]

It was interesting to read the answers to this question! As I have experienced it many times on this forum before, some of the things I was about to say have already been posted here.

Having pets can be fun, and it teaches you responsibility and selflessness.
I see we should never think of "having" pets, rather "sharing our lives" with one or more of them. Yes. People sharing their lives with cats or ferrets quite often say "I am actually owned by them".
Animals are not objects we should buy or give away, or to produce just to satisfy the customers' needs. So I wouldn't buy a dog or a cat of a special breed with a perfect pedigree. If I had a house on the countryside and someone from the neighbourhood announced they got a litter of puppets or kittens they don't know what to do with, of course I would adopt one or two.
Rescuing from shelters is also a good option.

Some years ago, I used to be a property of ferrets, and with one exception they were rescued ones. (Back in those times, ferrets were a kind of trend, so there were many fashion people buying them - and giving them away after they saw ferrets were not the world's easiest pets to live together with. So if you wanted a rescue ferret to get on your nerves for free, you didn't need to wait too much for that opportunity.)

I am still thankful for the things they taught me. Self-discipline, being careful, having good reflexes and an eye for details, not to lose my mind when being bitten, reacting very quickly when necessary, having enough sense of humour not to get mad when those little buggers exactly understand what they shouldn't do but are doing it anyway... hadn't it been for the ferrets, I would never have been able to develop such traits.
So, I think someone who really cares about animals can learn much from them, or with help from them.

Owning pets just because they're a special breed, because it's a status symbol to have a certain breed of dog or decorative Persian or Siamese cats, because it makes one feel special or anything in that direction - that doesn't really qualify as loving animals, I think.
Being responsible, accepting the less pleasant sides of having a companion animal, respecting the animals' needs does.

So I do think sharing one's life with pets can be a vegan thing to do, when done in a responsible and unselfish manner.

 

[Tom L.]

I just read (or maybe re-read) that article from The Guardian @Lou posted just above. It makes some good points: people who acquired pets during the Covid-19 pandemic lockdown, but couldn't provide the same care and companionship to their animals when the lockdown ended and they had to start going into the office again; the intentional breeding of animal breeds, such as pugs and boxers (and maybe the relatively new "Munchkin" cats), who have what could truthfully be called "disabilities". There are, of course, other examples- such as racehorses who suffer injuries during races more often than most people (such as myself) realize, and are euthanized. I still believe it is possible for an animal to have at least as good a life in captivity than in the wild- so long as the human responsible for them both genuinely cares about that animal and is knowledgeable about that animal's needs.

 

[deadknight]

I just read (or maybe re-read) that article from The Guardian @Lou posted just above. It makes some good points: people who acquired pets during the Covid-19 pandemic lockdown, but couldn't provide the same care and companionship to their animals when the lockdown ended and they had to start going into the office again; the intentional breeding of animal breeds, such as pugs and boxers (and maybe the relatively new "Munchkin" cats), who have what could truthfully be called "disabilities". There are, of course, other examples- such as racehorses who suffer injuries during races more often than most people (such as myself) realize, and are euthanized. I still believe it is possible for an animal to have at least as good a life in captivity than in the wild- so long as the human responsible for them both genuinely cares about that animal and is knowledgeable about that animal's needs.

Well, this is what I am absolutely against: intentionally breeding animals to have traits that are, indeed, disabilities.
Pugs and boxers have difficulties with breathing normally, that's terrible. Rescuing such dogs is a nice thing to do, but breeding them equals to torture, in my book.
And German Shepherds are regularly bred to be big and impressive - maybe this is how they can win exhibitions, but that's the straightest way to hip dysplasia.
Maybe I am very drastical, but I don't even like how they bred Persian cats so that they have those nearly missing noses, and Siamese cats so that they are so impossibly slender. Is it bad if cats look like actual cats? Or am I too old-fashioned?

It's good that you mention the practice of killing injured race horses. I did know about it and have always found it one of the worst form of animal abuse. "We keep you just for our entertainment; well, if you get injured while entertaining us, we'll shoot you humanely."

Yes, this is how we can live with companion animals so that they have good and fulfilling lives. Knowledge of the animal's needs and genuine care.

 

[roksburoks]

I do not think it is vegan, because then we still view dogs as entertainment for us. Unless its rescuing dogs from shelters, giving them a better life.

 

[deadknight]

I do not think it is vegan, because then we still view dogs as entertainment for us. Unless its rescuing dogs from shelters, giving them a better life.

Yes it's true. You see, this is what I notice quite often when looking at many dog "owners".
They say they are animal lovers because they have dogs, but I get the impression that they like the attention they get from their doggos, they like dogs' obedience and accepting them (humans) as their leaders, they like how dogs do their best to entertain humans (sometimes not even noticing how they make fools out of themselves just to please humans).
I might have too strict morals, but I consider this attitude to be animal abuse. Harnessing how the animals don't completely get everything they see and how they try to adapt themselves to human environment is abuse.

With other words, I see quite a few people using dogs as endless resources of narcissistic supply. This is what I find problematic.

Of course this is not true for all the dog owners, I see quite a few people taking their dogs for partners, companions.

And, as you are pointing at it, rescuing dogs from shelters and giving them a better life is absolutely okay and definitely a vegan thing to do.

 

[g0rph]

It was interesting to read the answers to this question! As I have experienced it many times on this forum before, some of the things I was about to say have already been posted here.

Having pets can be fun, and it teaches you responsibility and selflessness.
I see we should never think of "having" pets, rather "sharing our lives" with one or more of them. Yes. People sharing their lives with cats or ferrets quite often say "I am actually owned by them".

I agree with this.

Animals are not objects we should buy or give away, or to produce just to satisfy the customers' needs. So I wouldn't buy a dog or a cat of a special breed with a perfect pedigree. If I had a house on the countryside and someone from the neighbourhood announced they got a litter of puppets or kittens they don't know what to do with, of course I would adopt one or two.
Rescuing from shelters is also a good option.

Always a good option.

Some years ago, I used to be a property of ferrets, and with one exception they were rescued ones. (Back in those times, ferrets were a kind of trend, so there were many fashion people buying them - and giving them away after they saw ferrets were not the world's easiest pets to live together with. So if you wanted a rescue ferret to get on your nerves for free, you didn't need to wait too much for that opportunity.)

I am still thankful for the things they taught me. Self-discipline, being careful, having good reflexes and an eye for details, not to lose my mind when being bitten, reacting very quickly when necessary, having enough sense of humour not to get mad when those little buggers exactly understand what they shouldn't do but are doing it anyway... hadn't it been for the ferrets, I would never have been able to develop such traits.
So, I think someone who really cares about animals can learn much from them, or with help from them.

Owning pets just because they're a special breed, because it's a status symbol to have a certain breed of dog or decorative Persian or Siamese cats, because it makes one feel special or anything in that direction - that doesn't really qualify as loving animals, I think.

The one good thing with "special breeds" or rather pure-breds, is that when done responsibly, we can get dogs with good traits. Labs, retrievers are used for "seeing eye" dogs for example. They are calm and generally easy to train not to rush at other dogs.
German Shepherds (now the awful trait of a sloping back seems to be going away, make very good police dogs.
And of course the likes of bloodhounds are the pinnacle of tracking dogs.
Of course bull-dogs and shar peis and Bully XLs are terribly unhealthy. That's where special breeding is morally despicable IMO.

Being responsible, accepting the less pleasant sides of having a companion animal, respecting the animals' needs does.

So I do think sharing one's life with pets can be a vegan thing to do, when done in a responsible and unselfish manner.

I agree.


Ultimately, as I have said before... I don't think "veganism" would have been a thing but for "pets". The very act of having animals within human society gives us an insight to their personalities, intelligence and similarity to our own emotions.
Had it only been horses, cows, pigs, I think the disconnect would have massively slowed down any progress toward going plant-based.

 

[g0rph]

I do not think it is vegan, because then we still view dogs as entertainment for us. Unless its rescuing dogs from shelters, giving them a better life.

You may see it as entertainment. I see it as completing the family unit.

 

[PTree15]

I admit, I go back and forth on this issue. On the one hand, having an animal in the home or yard can seem exploitative and only for human enjoyment/use. (Disclaimer: I have had several cats over the years.) That said, there has been so much domestication of cats and dogs that leaving them to fend for themselves in the wild also seems cruel. But then again, that's coming from a human perspective/assumption of thinking they can't survive on their own. And because there is an abundance of unwanted domesticated cats and dogs, providing them with a safe haven seems like a good thing to do. Hence, my waffling, lol.

 

[silva]

What we're overlooking is the domestication of humans! No one seems to want to argue against our raising each generation with all our creature comforts, need for employment, technology, premade foods......
Dogs and cats ARE domestic. After all these generations they are well within our world. Feral cats and dogs are extremely subject to all manner of diseases and parasites that the local wildlife has far more immunity towards. They don't have their natural prey, and are scavengers of trash which is very dangerous. Cats esp fall prey to coyotes and street dogs
What needs to happen is banning backyard breeders and putting mandates on spay and neuter programs, as well as funding health insurance for animals

 

[g0rph]

What needs to happen is banning backyard breeders and putting mandates on spay and neuter programs, as well as funding health insurance for animals

I see a lot of issues with this.
You would "force" people to neuter animals? With what kind of punishment? What happens with "accidents"

As a child we had a Jack Russel ***** (female dog) that was "got at" by a stray when she was in the garden.
She ended up with 5 beautiful puppies, all of which found wonderful homes.
Should we in this instance have been fined?

We have a small dog. He is not neutered. I have no intention of putting him under the knife for no valid reason.
And I would fight nail and tooth to resist any law that said I should. And I am essentially vegan apart from a couple of differing "points of view"

Good luck getting carnists to agree to this.

 

[silva]

I see a lot of issues with this.
You would "force" people to neuter animals? With what kind of punishment? What happens with "accidents"

As a child we had a Jack Russel ***** (female dog) that was "got at" by a stray when she was in the garden.
She ended up with 5 beautiful puppies, all of which found wonderful homes.
Should we in this instance have been fined?

We have a small dog. He is not neutered. I have no intention of putting him under the knife for no valid reason.
And I would fight nail and tooth to resist any law that said I should. And I am essentially vegan apart from a couple of differing "points of view"

Good luck getting carnists to agree to this.

I should have stated I was only speaking of the US!!! From all the stories I've heard, particularly Scandinavian countries, animals are treated very differently! The US is terrible

 

[g0rph]

I should have stated I was only speaking of the US!!! From all the stories I've heard, particularly Scandinavian countries, animals are treated very differently! The US is terrible

Well I grew up in England, but yes, here in Sweden you simply don't see stray dogs (at least where I am). They cost a lot (even for rescues - which is possibly a problem in itself), then they must be chipped.
A law here says a dog must not be left alone for more than (I think) 4 hours. (Good, but a really poignant example of speciesism when compared to "food" animals).
Again, where I differ from 100% vegans is I do not have a problem with responsible breeding and the use of animals for pets, support and even police/armed forces so long as they are treated well and not simply discarded when they retire.

 

[FredVegrox]

The one good reason I know of to get an animal to care for that would eat animal meat is for a rescue. There isn't a sustainable way for caring for animals that way, placing demand for meat products which the industry gets paid for, and helps them continue, or having them catch animals from the wildlife, which has a very huge impact on environments and is not a balance of nature. Animals should not be bred for this. But dogs and cats being cared for, which would eat meat, can be fed plant-based food in place of it even with the nutrients that they need, which products really should be sought out, while looking to contribute the very least to harm to others.

 

[christen_g]

Its not vegan. Its treating animals as commodities.
I can see a comparison of keeping an animal like keeping a deaf-mute child, or a severely mentally handicapped child. But i think thats only possible if you intanftilize animals, treating them like infant humans, and they are just not.

Silva makes a good point that domestic animals are not wild animals and have been already shaped by humans to enjoy companionship with them. I agree about pet insurance, and think everyone, vegan or not, animal keeper or not, should treat regular vet care as a necessity, not as a "do when only im worried/feel like it". And if people cant afford healthcare for an animal in their family, they must find the money or give that animal to someone else to keep.

I will assert that it is possible to have an animal in your family that you dont keep. Theres nothing unvegan about offering animals healthy foods to eat, or shelter to stay in. The non-vegan part of keeping a pet is the "keeping" part, and the trade of animals (commodity). I know many people who have pets do not like the idea of opening their doors to the outside and letting their furry friends do whatever they want. But to live is to risk. You cannot know that your pet wants to live cooped up in your house. Even abducted, abused children smile for their captors. Plus, domesticated dogs and cats have spent most of their existence living this dual indoor-outdoor go-where-they-please lives. Its more of a recent thing to have cats and dogs as "companion" animals that are trapped within a house.

The moral exception is in jurisdictions where letting a pet go free is illegal. Keeping an inherited pet in such a scenario is still unvegan but the vegan thing to do, if breaking the law isnt an option, would be to ensure the pet has a job (if a work animal) and exercise and eats REAL food and (if applicable) has a large, natural enclosure and gets healthcare and isnt punished for being bored... or finding a better place for him.

 

[Brian W]

Silva makes a good point that domestic animals are not wild animals and have been already shaped by humans to enjoy companionship with them.

They are still in part wild animals. They are not human and do not have human understanding of the the human society they are forced to live in. They cannot fulfill their natural instincts and they cannot choose their food and either eat the stuff you feed them or go without, especially important when their natural food is meat and you feed them vegan food instead. How can you tell that your pet doesn't have IBS? Maybe it suffers pain after every meal because of the high fiber and can't tell you. Is your pet allowed to have a close relationship with the opposite sex? If not, how does that feel to your pet? There is far too much to think about before making a sentient being your prisoner.

 

[AndyAlexander]

Buying and owning a pet - not vegan. Adopting, allowing a stray to live with you, taking guardianship of a pet housemate - vegan. It’s quite simple: animals are not property.

 

[silva]

They are still in part wild animals. They are not human and do not have human understanding of the the human society they are forced to live in. They cannot fulfill their natural instincts and they cannot choose their food and either eat the stuff you feed them or go without, especially important when their natural food is meat and you feed them vegan food instead. How can you tell that your pet doesn't have IBS? Maybe it suffers pain after every meal because of the high fiber and can't tell you. Is your pet allowed to have a close relationship with the opposite sex? If not, how does that feel to your pet? There is far too much to think about before making a sentient being your prisoner.

Vegans in particular seem to view humans as if we've never been anything but our modern civilised selves. How about people who yearn to get back to nature? Build their own housing with their hand forged tools, no electronics, forage, hunt & fish for food....
We're animals too, and quite frankly, being vegan really wasn't much of an option in many places without the domestic modern conveniences we now have. Just trying to get enough calories from hand grinding and cooking grains and beans, or other plant sources wasn't nearly as efficient as from meat or fish. We very much become programmed to be slaves to all things powered and rely on instant gratification.
Domestic cats and dogs do not fare well at all when they go feral. They have the same lowered immune systems we do and succumb easily to parasites and disease and predators
While you can think it's wrong to change how animals live, what about humans? Are you really feeling the dogs and cats rescued from streets and woods aren't happier in homes of comfort? That they'd prefer the pain and hunger just to be wild? They are no more the same as their ancestors as we are to ours

I dreamt of coming home and finding a dog in my house, a large happy dog. It was a joyous dream and got me thinking how much the animals we home can be a wonderful experience for both ourselves and the animals.
We have to face the fact they're here and they need our homes, they have none of their own