Until they start wearing leather, I'm going to consider them vegan.
Well, they do wear leather and fur ... and they are actually the only ones who should do so.....
Is being vegan an all or nothing thing?
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Well, they do wear leather and fur ... and they are actually the only ones who should do so.....
Blobbenstein
.......
MadamSarcastra
MadamSarcastra, over & out.
Family Dollar has these little frozen dealies that Jerry absolutely loves, three chicken fingers & a little side of mac-n-cheese for $1.25.... anytime I think he may be in need of a snacky comfort food, I grab a few of those. I always feel uncomfortable at the check-out, like I'm a fraud & everyone is just shy of revealing it. LOL
Of course that's not true & the topic came up only once.... Check-out guy asked, "Hey, are these any good?" I said, "No idea, I'm vegetarian... but my best buddy really digs 'em." Made the transaction & he said I was nice for still getting those for my friend.... no pushiness, no judgement, all is right with the universe.
I've said this before, but I think it's OK to repeat myself a bit: In determining veganicity, we need to distinguish between products and persons. Whether a product is vegan is a different question to whether a person should be considered a vegan. With products the criteria we apply are more clear-cut. With people we should allow a little more flexibility. Vegan people may at times consume, purchase and/or use non-vegan products. The more important definition that we need to protect is that of a vegan product. Whether a person calls themselves a vegan while wearing a leather jacket, I don't care as much, as long as they're not campaigning to become president of the Vegan Society or something similar.
FortyTwo
Custom Title
I think that the definition of "vegan" is an all or nothing thing, but at the same time, I think that the "vegan" umbrella doesn't necessarily represent a perfect moral code in terms of consumption and participation in society. I think that there are probably people who buy honey from local beekeepers, eat a few eggs from the chickens they care for out back, etc., who accomplish more for animals than some people who are strictly vegan.
I disagree with this statement completely. It sends the wrong message that animal products are okay if they're from "happy" animals.
robert99
On the boat
The bees and chickens probably also disagree. We're back to the "I give money to Peta, so I can eat at KFC" arguement, I think.
""vegan" umbrella" - mmm ... more a cook book I would say.
""vegan" umbrella" - mmm ... more a cook book I would say.
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I don't agree with you on all the counts.
- Buying non-vegan products for others - sure, I can see that this would not make you a non-vegan.
If you refuse to buy some non-vegan products for your old, ailing mother, who is bed-ridden, she will likely be unhappy with you and send somebody else to buy it.
If your significant other asks you to bring something from the supermarket on your way home and you refuse, they will likely get it themselves. You have only very limited ways to protect animals in this way. More likely is that people will stop to ask you for favours.
- Consume non-vegan products.
I think you should only call yourself a vegan if you consciously go out of your way to not consume non-vegan products. When my mother celebrates her birthday, she knows that I will not eat a piece of cake. I typically bring my own banana instead. As a matter of fact, it is my impression that people would be confused if I told them that I am morally opposed to harming animals ... apart from exceptions. If I join others for lunch at a restaurant and there is nothing vegan for me to eat, then I will drink something instead. I will not starve from that one missed lunch. I will learn from that and bring something the next time. Sure, it might make others moderately uncomfortable, but we will all just have to live with that.
- Use non-vegan products.
Yes, I can see if somebody who goes vegan does not throw out his leather jacket and shoes, but rather might decide to keep them. I personally kept some leather shoes from my pre-vegan days for very cold winter days, but realized later that I simply would not put them on anyway, as they gross me out. I would rather wear my Vegetarian Shoes boots with some more extra socks instead. So ... after some time, I gave them away, too. But, as I said, I can understand everybody who keeps using leather items he might still have. I have little understanding, however, for anybody who would then go out and buy a new pair of leather shoes, while at the same time insisting that s/he was a vegan.
I'm having a hard time with this. I think it should be all or nothing. I gave up the vegan label months ago because I do go "off" every now and then. I have mentioned before that, for example, I will have bread when eating out and not ask if there is egg or dairy in it. So even though I go months completely dairy and egg free, there are those few times when I am not. But at the same time, I don't chow down on non vegan food on a whim. I haven't had a Dunkin Donut in almost twelve years. I want a medal for that! So I choose to say I'm "mostly" vegan.
I am very conscious of my purchases of non food items and always look for cruelty free options. And I strive to be very environmentally considerate as well with recycling and using cleaning products, etc. But I do color my hair three times a year.
So I don't know. I have the utmost respect for "pure" vegans and feel it is disrespectful to tell people that I am vegan. So, even though family and friends call me vegan, I always tell them, I'm not really. Vegans don't eat eggs or dairy or use products with animal ingredients. I'm not misleading anyone.
And I could offer a litany of reasons/excuses, but I won't. I'd much rather say I am not vegan but hope that one day I will resolve my issues and use the label proudly.
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I am very conscious of my purchases of non food items and always look for cruelty free options. And I strive to be very environmentally considerate as well with recycling and using cleaning products, etc. But I do color my hair three times a year.
So I don't know. I have the utmost respect for "pure" vegans and feel it is disrespectful to tell people that I am vegan. So, even though family and friends call me vegan, I always tell them, I'm not really. Vegans don't eat eggs or dairy or use products with animal ingredients. I'm not misleading anyone.
And I could offer a litany of reasons/excuses, but I won't. I'd much rather say I am not vegan but hope that one day I will resolve my issues and use the label proudly.
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I met a lot of vegans when I first went vegan and I know we do differ in opinion about where we personally draw the line. I know some of them wouldn't consider having meat-eating pets or getting the flu jab, but it doesn't really bother me what they think.
I generally listen to what people say, but then do what I think is best for my own situation.
I'm sure I could point out some inconsistencies with even the most (self-appointed) "perfect" vegan as there are some definite grey areas. I'm just glad that there seems to be more and more people trying a vegan (or vegetarian) lifestyle. I wouldn't want people to get put off by thinking that you have to live a certain way or make life as hard as possible for yourself by analysing every tiny choice.
Exactly.
I generally listen to what people say, but then do what I think is best for my own situation.
I'm sure I could point out some inconsistencies with even the most (self-appointed) "perfect" vegan as there are some definite grey areas. I'm just glad that there seems to be more and more people trying a vegan (or vegetarian) lifestyle. I wouldn't want people to get put off by thinking that you have to live a certain way or make life as hard as possible for yourself by analysing every tiny choice.
Personally , it wouldn't worry me in the least .
Exactly.
I agree. I have been helping several friends who are trying really hard to cut out food with animal ingredients. And I like that they see me as a role model. It's amazing to me. I encourage them to take small steps and not get discouraged thinking it has to be all or nothing.
I do get hung up on the label, though. I would not suggest that they call themselves vegan if they are still eating eggs or dairy even once a week. But I let them know that any effort they are making is a good thing.
Oh yes, I would tell them not to call themselves vegan as well.
It's still good that they are cutting down on non-vegan products.
Absolutely.Oh yes, I would tell them not to call themselves vegan as well.
This is exactly what the majority of people think. There is nothing wrong for omnis trying to eat less animal products and/or have vegetarian or vegan meals a few times a week. It will contribute to saving more animals.
I like to use "mostly vegan" as well @KLS52.
In all honesty, I'm having a hard time because I'm doing more with my Zen group and I see potential for conflict. So far, I haven't elected to participate in our monthly zazenkai (Sunday morning meditation with breaks from 6:30am - noon) because it includes a silent breakfast. During this practice, we're supposed to accept what's offered, eat all that we take, and be humble. I believe breakfast is usually oatmeal and fruit, but I'm not completely sure if it's 100% vegan. One tenet of Buddhism is to practice no harm, but another is to let go of attachments - and I am very attached to my vegan beliefs. *sigh*
In all honesty, I'm having a hard time because I'm doing more with my Zen group and I see potential for conflict. So far, I haven't elected to participate in our monthly zazenkai (Sunday morning meditation with breaks from 6:30am - noon) because it includes a silent breakfast. During this practice, we're supposed to accept what's offered, eat all that we take, and be humble. I believe breakfast is usually oatmeal and fruit, but I'm not completely sure if it's 100% vegan. One tenet of Buddhism is to practice no harm, but another is to let go of attachments - and I am very attached to my vegan beliefs. *sigh*
Dedalus
Mercurial and fleeting
My understanding of Buddhism is very limited, but in my opinion, if you truly practice no harm - then you eat no animals or animal products. The very idea that one could be striving for a wholly peaceful mind, body and spirit - while at the same time consuming food that in of itself has caused harm or exploitation of an animal is a huge contradiction. If one's body is a temple - why introduce an element contrary to your beliefs into it?
I'm sure it was much less of an ethical dilemma for poor monks centuries ago, when the traditions were being cemented in stone.
Like every religion, Buddhism has its inherent faults. For the most part, Buddhists are very open to veganism - especially the younger Western-influenced ones. But there are bumps in the road. At this point I choose not to participate in certain practices, and that might be where I stay.
(Probably more than you'd care to know, but in zazen, we're not really striving to be peaceful, but to reach a point of acceptance, which might seem like it should be peaceful, but carries a bit more complexity as there's always something that isn't "good" - i.e., the pain in your knee, your thoughts about your mother, your neighbor's bad breath, etc.)
Calliegirl
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I can refuse to shop for her, but if she does her own, it's almost all animal products. Although I'm not happy buying her meat and dairy, I can limit the amount she gets to where it's mostly fruits, vegetables and meat substitutes. Her meat/dairy eating has gone down by at least 75% if not more since I started doing the shopping.
She bought turkey to make burgers a couple of months ago, but hasn't touched it since I've been getting and cooking veggie burgers.
