Go Green now if You Dislike Trump

[PTree15]

I see your point that you won't be buying a car soon, but I'll reply anyway for the benefit of others.

Your doubts are quite common so it's an interesting discussion.

On the electricity costs, if does depend on how high we are talking about, if it's 30 cents/kWh for example, EVs will still be far cheaper than a conventional car. It has to be something like 80cents/kWh before it costs per mile a similar amount to gas (very rough estimate) and rarely is anywhere that expensive. After you get an EV, you can sometimes sign up to a special cheap overnight rate and mainly charge the car then, which is even better.

I've actually noticed that people talk a lot about the environmental impact of production of and disposal of electric vehicles, but completely ignore the environmental impact of production of and disposal of conventional vehicles. With EVs, you only have to dig up lithium etc once to produce the car and often in a desert where there isn't as much human or animal life to disturb. With a petrol and diesel car, you have to continually dig up oil throughout the lifetime of the vehicle to keep it going, so the impact is much higher. Therefore, the environmental impacts of EVs can only be an argument for not having a car, and not an argument to stay with a gas car.

Yes, wannabe EV owners may have to upgrade their electrics and put an electric charger in, possibly at a cost of $1,000-$2,000 (a rough guess, but it varies). However, that is not much compared to the overall cost of owning any car for some years. It just feels like a big chunk at the start which is part of the issue, especially for people that don't have savings and can't get (good) credit.

For long trips, a 2 hour trip might be a 2.5 hour trip in an EV, and a 5 hour trip might become a 7 hour trip, but it varies. If EV owners can charge from home they make back that lost time on the occassional longer trip by all the time you save at the gas station. Plus, on the longer trips , you just use those 15-45 minute breaks to catch up on whatsapp messages, the news, or getting something to eat having planned ahead and not looked at all your whatsapp messages and news earlier in the day.

I actually think your post demonstrates the hesitation people have in making a change, even when that change will make people (eventually) better off and happier eventually. Again, not you personally since this isn't the right time for you, but for anyone else.

I do not discount the environmental impact of conventional car production/disposal, but the battery issue for EVs, mostly about disposal, is a big concern. It's like nuclear energy waste, which remains a danger to both people and the planet. I guess I don't want to add to that. There needs to be a better way of safely disposing/recycling of spent batteries.

RE: Solar: I would love to go solar, because I plan to stay in my house (which gets pretty good sunlight) for as long as possible, but again, it's upfront money that is the issue. I just don't have it. One thing I do use a lot is my solar oven. I love that thing.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

OK, I thought about this and I decided in this case a direct and blunt message is the best way to make sure this message gets through. No disrespect intended, hope I made the right choice.

So anyway:

Who cares what they do with the batteries?

Petrol and diesel cars are causing wars, pollution that directly kills hundreds of thousands of people, fossil fuel industry keeping right-wing governments in power, financing the propping up of dictators from Venezuela to Moscow, climate change that kills millions including famine, diseases, the destruction of possibly most or all of the coral reefs, more extreme hurricanes smashing the southern and Eastern US, fires burning across California, oil spills coating birds, the sea literally setting on fire, explosions that killed workers, poisoned water.

It's 1000 times worse than the impact of batteries.

They might recycle the batteries (this is already happening and looks the most likely, TBC), repurpose them for energy storage. But even if they send them to landfill and let them rot there and leach into the soil, so what? It would still be a massive improvement on the current situation.

There's no perfect world, so let's focus on the problems that are 1000x worse.

Putin is killing civilians with oil profits today.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

Trump and the Republicans were overwhelmingly favored by oil donations in 2016, then won by a tiny margin. Without petrol and diesel cars, Hillary Clinton would have won, the Republicans would have picked a different candidate next time, and Donald Trump's mediocre opinions would have never got beyond TV shows and twitter.

 

[silva]

I think the MyChevorlet app has a route planner. you put in your final destination and it tells you when and where to stop. I know at any time you can just say Hey, Siri where is the closest charger and it will give you directions.

Do you still have free ev chargers at stores? Our Target had them, but not sure if they still do. There are a number of charging station near me.
My son had a '96 Prelude, and still looks for another

The Green new Deal truly was under valued, and so much never came to fruition.
Like Ohio (and most other states) never implemented the energy savings rebates for upgrading and insulating homes. I still have half knob and tube!

 

[Lou]

I think I figured out the math.
I can add 100 miles of range in 30 minutes at a regular charging station. I think that is like $10.

Do you still have free ev chargers at stores?

Supposedly. one of my apps has a free charging filter. but so far all the ones I've looked at are for employees or residents.

My son had a '96 Prelude, and still looks for another

let him know that I have one for sale.

The Green new Deal truly was under valued, and so much never came to fruition.

Yes. Biden did a lot with his big bills. and that was what he could do without any republican's votes and not even the whole senate.

Like Ohio (and most other states) never implemented the energy savings rebates for upgrading and insulating homes. I still have half knob and tube!

I think California did a good job on that. I was listening on the radio this morning and they were doing a list of all the rebates and tax credits that were going away - but people still had time to do them. EVs were the first on the list.

 

[PTree15]

OK, I thought about this and I decided in this case a direct and blunt message is the best way to make sure this message gets through. No disrespect intended, hope I made the right choice.

So anyway:

Who cares what they do with the batteries?

Petrol and diesel cars are causing wars, pollution that directly kills hundreds of thousands of people, fossil fuel industry keeping right-wing governments in power, financing the propping up of dictators from Venezuela to Moscow, climate change that kills millions including famine, diseases, the destruction of possibly most or all of the coral reefs, more extreme hurricanes smashing the southern and Eastern US, fires burning across California, oil spills coating birds, the sea literally setting on fire, explosions that killed workers, poisoned water.

It's 1000 times worse than the impact of batteries.

They might recycle the batteries (this is already happening and looks the most likely, TBC), repurpose them for energy storage. But even if they send them to landfill and let them rot there and leach into the soil, so what? It would still be a massive improvement on the current situation.

There's no perfect world, so let's focus on the problems that are 1000x worse.

Putin is killing civilians with oil profits today.

I'm well aware of the evils/dangers/impact of the fossil fuel industry. The people/politicians who benefit from this industry will do whatever they can to keep their death grip on it and the money/power it produces. I have no illusions about that. As stated, I'm not in a position to buy an ICE car, let alone an EV, so I was simply mentioning one of the concerns I have about EVs.

I also know that there's no perfect world. But I DO care about toxins leaching into the soil that may be used to grow the food we eat. I'm simply saying we need a better way to dispose of/recycle batteries.

Trump and the Republicans were overwhelmingly favored by oil donations in 2016, then won by a tiny margin. Without petrol and diesel cars, Hillary Clinton would have won, the Republicans would have picked a different candidate next time, and Donald Trump's mediocre opinions would have never got beyond TV shows and twitter.[/end quote]

This is an oversimplification of a pretty complicated political landscape. The reasons for Trump's victory are many and their roots go back decades.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

I think that because Trump won by a tiny margin in 2016 everything that helped him only a little lit bit sort of made the difference.

He wouldn't have won without Russian interference.
He wouldn't have won without racism.
He wouldn't have won if Hillary Clinton hadn't made the deplorables comment.
He wouldn't have won if Comey hadn't opened a proble into the Hillary emails a few days before the election.
etc
etc
etc

Possibly most or all of those above statements, and others, are true.

The Russian interference might not have been that important. It was quite a small factor. There might have been many things more important. But it still might have made the difference.

 

[Lou]

RE: Solar: I would love to go solar, because I plan to stay in my house (which gets pretty good sunlight) for as long as possible, but again, it's upfront money that is the issue. I just don't have it. One thing I do use a lot is my solar oven. I love that thing.

Going solar

something you should investigate and probably right away.
There are a lot of companies financing solar. Thirty years ago I worked for a solar pool heating company. We had deals where the homeowner paid us just what he saved. We also had ways where the homeowner borrowed the money is his TSA and then just paid it back. One company paid the cost of the installation and then got paid by the utility company for the electricity produced.

Some of the economics depends on your own utility company. PGE is pretty bad. You pay for the electricity you use but only get credit for the electricity you make. And the credits are only good for a year - then they evaporate. it is a really bad plan because it means people either don't maximize their solar installation and/or don't conserve power.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

Cash In On Clean Tech Incentives (Before It's Too Late) — A Matter of Degrees has more detail if you fancy listening to a podcast on this. I didn't listen to this one, but it is a good podcast, I've listen to most of the previous ones.

Remember, end of September for EV subsidy, but start now to allow time.

End of the year for solar but need to start now as it takes months to sort out.

 

[Lou]

Good on you Lou for going EV without home charging: might be interesting to see a report from you after a few months about how it's been.

So far so good. My oldest sister just moved to assisted living about 40 miles away. Even if I visit with her just once a week it doubles the amount of miles I do in a week.

I had been going to the grocery store once a week and charging for about a half hour and getting about 100 miles more range. but last time I went to the grocery store I had gotten down to 20% (the recommended minimum for maintaining battery health). And I went up to 80% (the recommended maximum for maintaining battery health) in just 35 minutes. So even with the extra miles each week I think I'm going to be able to just keep charging on my weekly grocery trips.

the other nice thing is that at my sister's residence they have Slow Charging stations that are free. I haven't figured it out yet but on the last two visits I stayed for about 4 hours and each time when I left the battery was up to 80%.

A couple of times I have used slow charging units in parking lots. I think you get about 20 miles worth in an hour. Which makes them barely worthwhile. Although sometimes it gives you a better parking spot.

my car constantly tells you how many KWH you are using. the numbers don't mean much to me but I can see that if I go over 65 the KWH goes way down. (probably to do with wind resisantance. ). I used to drive mostly at 75 mph on the freeway but I've slowed down to 65, not sure how many more miles I'll be able to go but it only takes me a few minutes longer if I go slower. I'm sure this was true in my old car too but for some reason I just didn't care.

I do a lot of my fwy driving on I-280. it's a very pretty road that was designed for 80 mph. "World's Most Beautiful Freeway"

----------

My sister who has had EVs for the last ten years totally talked me out of a hybrid. they are a step in the right direction so if you have to get one - but try to do some more exploration, investigation and calculations before you decide.

For the most part hybrids have a lot of range and really good MPG.. and if you can plug in at home they are very cost efficient.
But my sister pointed out that just like EVs they have very expensive batteries that eventually need to be replaced. But they also have engines that need oil changes and tune ups. Belts and hoses that need replacing. Radiators that need flushing, etc, etc.

A 2019 Prius C might be the best little hybrid. If it still has the original battery it should be very inexpensive, but you should put aside about 5 grand for when you will need to replace the battery.

My nephew got a great deal on a pre owned Camry. there are like a million of them on the road too.
The Korean auto makers have the longest warranties. like 10 years.

One of the reasons I bought the Bolt is that a few years ago All Bolts had their batteries recalled. My battery is only 7 months old.

 

[LoreD]

I purchased my Spark 10 years ago before I retired. I wanted a Prius, but it was a lot more expensive, and I wouldn't be driving a lot, so it didn't make economic sense.

I moved to a downtown apartment and only drive to medical and dental appointments, supermarkets, and 60 miles to visit my daughter. Sometimes my car doesn't leave the garage for 2 weeks. I drive even less during the winter because my tiny car doesn't like the snow.

I fill my 8 gallon tank about once every 6 weeks. During the winter, about once every 2 months.

In some situations, a tiny and extremely fuel efficient car can be the best fit.

 

[KLS52]

I purchased my Spark 10 years ago before I retired. I wanted a Prius, but it was a lot more expensive, and I wouldn't be driving a lot, so it didn't make economic sense.

I moved to a downtown apartment and only drive to medical and dental appointments, supermarkets, and 60 miles to visit my daughter. Sometimes my car doesn't leave the garage for 2 weeks. I drive even less during the winter because my tiny car doesn't like the snow.

I fill my 8 gallon tank about once every 6 weeks. During the winter, about once every 2 months.

In some situations, a tiny and extremely fuel efficient car can be the best fit.

You do even better than me with driving few miles. My Honda civic is 13 years old and we just hit 100,000 miles. I thought that was good lol. I fill up approximately every 2-3 weeks.

 

[Chryssie]

You do even better than me with driving few miles. My Honda civic is 13 years old and we just hit 100,000 miles. I thought that was good lol. I fill up approximately every 2-3 weeks.

My Kia Soul is also 13 years old and has only 96K miles on it. I get gas every couple of weeks but I still want a hybrid!

 

[Lou]

Well my Prelude was 25 years old and only had 100000 miles.


However to be fair doing the first couple of years I also had a truck and a motorcycle.

 

[Andy_T]

My wife and I bought a hybrid car (2021 Mercedes C 300 de, a Diesel hybrid car) 16 months ago.
It was a compromise, as I am very much in favour of electric vehicles, but she was rather sceptical.
I understand she was at that point very much afraid of running out of battery and getting stranded in potentially dangerous places, while I had already for a few years been the person to make a plan for every longer (> 300 miles) trip and researched the availability of LPG filling stations along the road, as I simply hated to run out of LPG and have to use gasoline (which is twice as expensive) instead.

The good thing about the experience after one year is that although the electric range is very short (40 km in summer, around 25 km in winter), that still worked out very well for our daily commute - granted, we work at the same place, and it is very close (about 10 km) to our home. Overall, in our first year of ownership, we drove a total of 10,000 km, which breaks down more or less to 6,000 km on electricity for our daily commute and short trips in the vicinity, and 4,000 km on Diesel for a few road trips we took in that time.

The bad thing is that I realised that hybrid cars consume significantly more energy than dedicated electric vehicles.

The strange thing I realised is that when I am not charging at home (Solar panels + battery, and cheapish - for Europe - electric tariff of 0,35 €/kWh), it is actually MORE expensive to drive on electricity than on Diesel, as the electric consumption is high and the tariffs at public chargers are in the 0,45 - 0,55 €/kWh range for slow charging.

My vehicle can not even use any of the fast chargers, which have a different connector, where the prices would be even higher (upwards of € 0,75 / kWh)

 

[Jamie in Chile]

A plug-in hybrid can be a good compromise for people that are scared of public charging and want the absolute minimal hassle on road trips. Personally, I don't think it's a good trade off because you end up paying more in diesel and the car itself to avoid perhaps an hour's worth of hassle and irritation per year.

It is a shame that these vehicles always tend to have a low range like 40km, I think they should make them with 100km electric range.

I am skeptical that 0,45 - 0,55 €/kWh is more expensive than diesel though.

 

[VegetableLiker]

Go green NOW!? Buddy, look at my profile picture, I went "green" a LOOOOONG time ago! As for that President Trump fellow, he took more of the orange route... (Vegans stay winning!)

 

[FredVegrox]

I think going green is a token gesture, especially if it is because Trump's direction is well on the way toward ruining this world for us to be here, forever. At least why not walk everywhere that can be sensibly chosen? I will walk several miles for some small things. Others do not get the exercise I am getting this way. But seriously civilization is in trouble with what it is facing and it would be more meaningful to live away from cities with any others in small communities making everything there and growing all the food there. That should be a serious pursuit of many.

 

[sugarhiccup]

Until they get the battery issue fixed I won't be considering an EV. Just last week for example a Tesla owner , I think it was Germany, and his two daughters died in a EV battery fire. The car hit a tree and locked them all inside when the power went off. A man in a business across the street from the accident couldn't put out the fire because you can't put an EV battery fire out with water (and EV batteries are known to re-ignite later even after the chemical sprays used to put them out are administered just FYI). Also the harvesting of the minerals needed for EV batteries are abhorrent, sometimes children do the work. Deep sea mining for minerals is being looked into which is, to me, insane when it comes to the safety of ocean life and the ocean waters.
Plus the pollution run off from broken solar panels into the environment which affects the wild animal life, and water, plants, etc..
There are so many issues still with this stuff that I can't seriously consider it at this time.

 

[Lou]

Until they get the battery issue fixed I won't be considering an EV. Just last week for example a Tesla owner , I think it was Germany, and his two daughters died in a EV battery fire. The car hit a tree and locked them all inside when the power went off. A man in a business across the street from the accident couldn't put out the fire because you can't put an EV battery fire out with water (and EV batteries are known to re-ignite later even after the chemical sprays used to put them out are administered just FYI). Also the harvesting of the minerals needed for EV batteries are abhorrent, sometimes children do the work. Deep sea mining for minerals is being looked into which is, to me, insane when it comes to the safety of ocean life and the ocean waters.
Plus the pollution run off from broken solar panels into the environment which affects the wild animal life, and water, plants, etc..
There are so many issues still with this stuff that I can't seriously consider it at this time.

sure you can always find specific issues with anything.

but ....
EV battery fires are a concern, though they are significantly less common than fires in gasoline vehicles.EVs are equipped with Battery Management Systems (BMS) to monitor temperature and prevent overheating.

In fact EVs are safer than gasoline powered cars.