Fourth Wave Feminism

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What I see mischief is.. Any discussion around feminism fraught with misunderstandings and over reaction as men brave the minefield of political correctness to give their genuine opinions without causing anger or offence.

Mysandrists see allowing men to have opinions in the same way that chauvinists see allowing women to have shoes.

Mebbe you need to listen to my 2 1/2 hour "How sling-backs are responsible for everything from global warming through to urban decay" monologue again?
 
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What I see mischief is.. Any discussion around feminism fraught with misunderstandings and over reaction as men brave the minefield of political correctness to give their genuine opinions without causing anger or offence.

No, I think that you completely miss the implications of the statement I originally quoted. It has absolutely zero to do with political correctness.
 
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What I see mischief is.. Any discussion around feminism fraught with misunderstandings and over reaction as men brave the minefield of political correctness to give their genuine opinions without causing anger or offence.

Ah, yes, brave, brave men, with our genuine opinions that have been blasted in everyone else's faces for thousands of years with almost no room for differences at all, despite the fact that we are no better or worse than every one of the groups we've historically stepped all over.
 
Ah, yes, brave, brave men, with our genuine opinions that have been blasted in everyone else's faces for thousands of years with almost no room for differences at all, despite the fact that we are no better or worse than every one of the groups we've historically stepped all over.

I think some people can't recognize the difference between not being allowed to hold an opinion, and being allowed to hold an opinion, but having that opinion challenged. You have the right to think whatever you want about whatever, but I have the right to challenge that opinion if I find it problematic. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from my speech.

I also agree that when people whine about everything being to PC, what they really mean is "wah, I just wanna be a jerk, why won't you let me".
 
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Ah, yes, brave, brave men, with our genuine opinions that have been blasted in everyone else's faces for thousands of years with almost no room for differences at all, despite the fact that we are no better or worse than every one of the groups we've historically stepped all over.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Original sin?
 
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Original sin?

No, I don't believe in generational guilt. I just am conscious enough to understand that the past affects the present and we are living in the present so sometimes we need to make up for what happened in the past in order to improve the present.

(Here we go again...!)
 
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No, I don't believe in generational guilt. I just am conscious enough to understand that the past affects the present and we are living in the present so sometimes we need to make up for what happened in the past in order to improve the present.

Be careful with that, so you don't perpetuate hate.
 
Now it's my turn to not be sure what you're saying here.

Focusing too much on the past is a powerful way to transfer blame (and hate) to groups in the present. The best example I can think of is the Israeli/Palestine conflict.
 
Your current CEO may be male but it is the 'man' (who happens to be female) of that particular relationship who works in advertising in the city?

CG s summation of this particular couples dynamic is a very accurate one and one shared by both the males and females who work with the husband.

Sadly one which he himself admitted to during an earnest chat with a couple of us at the Xmas party. He expressed his regret that like many women his wife felt the need to be a ball breaker and surrender her softer side.

The issue people have with this idea that the female is the "man" in the relationship because she is a determined person or very good at business etc... is that it relies on a very outdated view of men and women and the qualities they have as people. The traditional gender roles are oversimplified stereotypes and what feminism does IMO is to challenge these views and allow people to be whoever they want to be.
 
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The issue people have with this idea that the female is the "man" in the relationship because she is a determined person or very good at business etc... is that it relies on a very outdated view of men and women and the qualities they have as people. The traditional gender roles are oversimplified stereotypes and what feminism does IMO is to challenge these views and allow people be whoever they want to be.

Put being a 'man' into the context of having the qualities it takes to succeed in a 'mans' world and you may see what myself and the Chovie were bantering about there in a slightly different light, Moll.

We were kinda taking the p*** out of people who think it is gender (as opposed to qualities) that determines who succeeds in a 'mans' world and who doesn't.

I think I can safely still say 'we' here: We find it amusing, in an ironic way, that examining the qualities of women who just breeze straight through that glass ceiling is so highly opposed in favour of some good old straight forward gender bashing.

From a feminist PoV (as opposed to from the PoV of mysandrists and female misogynists who see themselves as feminists) the focus on gender, rather than on qualities, as the 'secret' to success is a recipe for complete and utter disaster.
 
Personally, when it comes to a "man's world" of business (however real or imagined it is), I'd like to see a reordering of priorities.

It seems clear, based on the statistics we have, men are still expected (either by themselves or by women) to be more likely to define themselves through their career. Men work more hours, work in riskier jobs (most on-the-job-deaths are male - odds are the riskier the field, the more heavily its male dominated), and are expected to spend less times with their families.

Wouldn't it be healthier for all if, instead of trying to forcing women into that same career-centric mold, we free men from it? This is one of the things the original linked article talks about (I know, how rude of me to actually get back on topic :p). This is one of the things feminism has been traditionally bad at challenging - first wave was for de jure rights, second wave was for de facto rights, third wave actually figured out that there's more than just middle class white women, but all have been pretty focused at gaining equal footing, instead of examining what the hell they are trying to gain.

While there has been some movements towards reordering society, as a whole, the feminist movement is not so much of "smash the patriarchy" as it is "join the patriarchy" (to use the misleading term of "patriarchy").

I'd rather seek a massive reordering of priorities. Which is what the original link was talking about. And I understand that the earlier waves of feminism were important at gaining more equal rights, but time has marched on, and the best way to fix the system now is to replace it. Some people will still be career-driven, but lets not trap people into roles based on their gender, regardless of what that gender may be.
 
Wouldn't it be healthier for all if, instead of trying to forcing women into that same career-centric mold, we free men from it?

Ultimately it's about money, das.

Basicaly what you are talking about there is freeing both men and women from measuring their value by how much they earn.

Yes that would be healthier but I think you'll have trouble attaching wings that will fly to that little bird!