Fourth Wave Feminism

[FortyTwo]

I agree that most leaders are male. But at the same time, you're talking about a different class of men. The poorest US president in the last 50 years was still a millionaire. To assume that the typical male is a millionaire is a very big mistake. Yes, it's far more possible to reach the top as a male, but most people, even males, will come nowhere near the top.

Bolded: concerns privilege.

Underlined: does not concern privilege.

You seem to grasp the concepts but you aren't recognizing them for what they are.

I think, regardless of the speaker, it's inappropriate. It may be easier to understand if it was someone who was affected by those things, but that doesn't mean it's condonable behavior. The speaker at the conference was politely pointing out what was unacceptable behavior. And assuming the man was a neurotypical individual (not always a safe bet at cons), the elevator proposition was foreseeable as being confrontational.

Of course it's not condonable behavior.

Can we agree that Dawkins was in the wrong and move on?

 

[Mischief]

neurotypical

I object to that term as being derogatory and offensive to everyone who is not "neurotypical". I think there needs
to be a term that specifically describes that segment of the population, something that has no potential negative implications about anyone else.

 

[Clueless Git]

There really is kind of a ruling gender in most of the world. How many world leaders are female? What percent of congress? Percentage of CEO's? How many female presidents of the US have there been?

With the whole world screaming to get their female quotas filled that, because it is true, is a most peculiar thing.

 

[Mischief]

With the whole world screaming to get their female quotas filled that, because it is true, is a most peculiar thing.

So true.

It must be because females just aren't suited to/don't want leadership positions.

 

[FortyTwo]

I object to that term as being derogatory and offensive to everyone who is not "neurotypical". I think there needs
to be a term that specifically describes that segment of the population, something that has no potential negative implications about anyone else.

Mental illness?

There are a lot of terms for mental illness, pick one I guess.

 

[FortyTwo]

So true.

It must be because females just aren't suited to/don't want leadership positions.

One thing's for sure: it can't possibly be the fault of men.

 

[das_nut]

Bolded: concerns privilege.

Underlined: does not concern privilege.

You seem to grasp the concepts but you aren't recognizing them for what they are.

I think it's utterly misleading. I can honestly say that it has been shown that Black males do have the privilege of becoming president (since our current president is identified as a person of African descent), but it's utterly misleading to assume that most males of African descent will become president.

When you start looking at the exceptions of a group of people who share one attribute, and consider that a norm, you're engaging in a bit of flawed stereotyping.

I object to that term as being derogatory and offensive to everyone who is not "neurotypical". I think there needs to be a term that specifically describes that segment of the population, something that has no potential negative implications about anyone else.

Allistic is a term that's gaining popularity instead of neurotypical.

 

[Freesia]

I am non neurotypical, and I prefer neurotypical as a term, to allistic. It was in vogue when i was first reading about these issues and I dont really feel like changing it in my mind. Some might prefer allistic but I am not bothered by that.

 

[das_nut]

I am non neurotypical, and I prefer neurotypical as a term, to allistic. It was in vogue when i was first reading about these issues and I dont really feel like changing it in my mind. Some might prefer allistic but I am not bothered by that.

"Neurodiverse" does sound more interesting than "neurotypical".

 

[Ann Chovie]

I do not know where the "fault" lies or why there is still the disparity between numbers of men and women At the " top"

But .. It is not my experience at all within any of the environments where I work.

In CAB where I work locally,
highest positions including chief executive have historically been held by women with the present exe being a man who broke through that particular" ceiling" !!

His own wife by the way holds a high management position in advertising in the city.

I also work within three hospital trusts two of which have female chief executives and a majority presence of women on their management boards.

Macmillan where I am also contracted has a pre-dominantly female management structure too. And all my line management to the top is female.

Begs the question of whether some employment areas are " safe" in the hands of women? Or there is an acceptance that they excel in the arena of caring ?

Although having spent many years in the hospitality trade I have found the same applies .

Not meaning to be controversial just reflecting ... Wherever the glass ceiling is I have been luck enough never to have witnessed it!!!

 

[Clueless Git]

Not meaning to be controversial just reflecting ... Wherever the glass ceiling is I have been luck enough never to have witnessed it!!!

This won't mean a lot to anyone but you, I don't think ...

Your current CEO may be male but it is the 'man' (who happens to be female) of that particular relationship who works in advertising in the city?

It may also ring a bell that all the female dominated organisations you have experience of are either public sectors or charities?

Basicaly what you have there is one example of a woman who has done well in 'dog-eat-dog land' and multiple examples of who fairs better in the more protected arena of 'quota filling we're very nicey-nicey but what we do doesn't actualy pay it's own bills-ville'.

Anyways, this 'glass ceiling' thing really frustrates the hell out of me ...

It does exist for all but a tiny hand full of people, I wouldn't dispute that.

Thing that frustrates me is that the clue is the name which is why it, the glass ceiling, doesn't hold back anyone, male or female, who just has the gumption to don a pair of steel toe caps (someone should make pretty ones with a high heel in the sling-back fashion, possibly) and kick right through it.

Even more frustrating ...

As you know I've been both sides of that ceiling and one side of it is full of people, male and female, who find it absolutely hilarious to watch the 'under-privileged' crying about the "nasty tough glass" in some vain hope that their tears alone will dissolve it.

 

[SummerRain]

Mod Post: Please make sure posts contribute to the discussion, and aren't empty of content. (On the whole there isn't a lot of this in this thread, so if this doesn't apply to you, don't worry about it! )

 

[ledboots]

Mod Post: Please make sure posts contribute to the discussion, and aren't empty of content. (On the whole there isn't a lot of this in this thread, so if this doesn't apply to you, don't worry about it! )

This makes some people not want to post at all. Did you delete the posts that "don't contribute" --because I really don't see any except the mod post?

Glass ceilings *do* exist, and high heeled shoes don't crack them. :eyeroll: Personal experiences that some have in health care or social work settings may have more women at the top than other professions, for now anyway. Here in the US, hospitals are moving away from nurses moving up to management, and more towards people with degrees in health care management. Incidently, the salaries mysteriously go way up, too, in this scenario. Just coincidental, I'm sure.

 

[Freesia]

"Neurodiverse" does sound more interesting than "neurotypical".

Neurodiverse actually refers to people who are non-neurotypical though.

Anyway I will assure you that most mentally ill/autistic/other neurodiverse people are not bothered by whether people are offended by "Neurotypical" or not.

In the words of an autistic man regarding the subject:

"The parameters of human thought according to which people define and describe themselves and others, to which they live by and find their spouses, has no meaning to me."

So, he just doesnt care about any of this fuss regarding the word Neurotypical.

Or, if that opinion is a little detached for you, here is another:

"I don't understand the objection. It's a pretty useful term- obviously there are common ways for the brain to process and then there are less common ways. I like how it empowers those who are in a neurological minority- those who have more common/typical brain processing are not "normal," there are just more of them."

So, this demonstrates how I feel.

 

[Freesia]

Anyway, I think that abled people complaining about what people who have a disability call them is kind of ridiculous really.

Disabled people go through a lot of hardship in their lives, and I think more of a pressing concern is the fact that so many disabled people are poor, homeless, the fact that autistic people are 50 times more likely to commit suicide than a non autistic person, stuff like that. Makes me not so concerned about the "feelings" of "normal" people, who the world is designed for.

 

[kibbleforlola]

This makes some people not want to post at all. Did you delete the posts that "don't contribute" --because I really don't see any except the mod post?

Glass ceilings *do* exist, and high heeled shoes don't crack them. :eyeroll: Personal experiences that some have in health care or social work settings may have more women at the top than other professions, for now anyway. Here in the US, hospitals are moving away from nurses moving up to management, and more towards people with degrees in health care management. Incidently, the salaries mysteriously go way up, too, in this scenario. Just coincidental, I'm sure.

And jobs like healthcare, and teaching, etc etc are pink collared. I.e. as it shifts to a more female dominated profession, wages go down. I'm sure that's just the invisible hand of the free market, and not a reflection on things coded as "women's work" being undervalued.

 

[SummerRain]

This makes some people not want to post at all. Did you delete the posts that "don't contribute" --because I really don't see any except the mod post?

Yeah I did (delete them).

 

[kibbleforlola]

Anyway, this thread is just, ugh. A bunch of privileged people moaning about how privilege doesn't exist (protip: being blind to privilege doesn't mean you don't have it, it just means your privileged enough not to see how it impacts your life! Funny how that works!) And then telling non-privileged people how their doing activism for their own minority groups (feminism, etc.) wrong.

Super gross, y'all.

 

[das_nut]

Neurodiverse actually refers to people who are non-neurotypical though.

I know. But would you rather be a member of a "diverse" group, or a member of a "typical" group?

The term "diverse" seems more positive than the term "typical" to me. So its my personal believe that "neurotypical" does not paint allistic people in a more positive light than neurodiverse people.

YMMV.

Anyway, this thread is just, ugh. A bunch of privileged people moaning about how privilege doesn't exist (protip: being blind to privilege doesn't mean you don't have it, it just means your privileged enough not to see how it impacts your life! Funny how that works!) And then telling non-privileged people how their doing activism for their own minority groups (feminism, etc.) wrong.

Who are you calling "non-privileged"? If nothing else, in the West, you tend to have the privilege of drinking water that doesn't make you sick. You have a government that probably won't round you up and put you in a concentration camp. By the whole ideology of "privilege", it's hard to find someone who lacks privilege.

Which makes the term kinda useless, IMO.

You can start talking about a specific type of attribute giving privilege, but you fall into the trap of stereotyping individuals based on pigeonholing.

 

[kibbleforlola]

^^^ Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

Privilege denying one oh one: deflect, deflect, deflect.

"Nuh uh! privilege doesn't exist! but if it does, you have it too! everyone has privilege, therefore privilege doesn't exist! Therefore you're a bigot because you stereotype! The real problem here is you!" It should be pointed out here that the irony here is that you have the privilege to make those without have to explain how privilege works, because you have the privilege to go around in life without having to examine the social structures that work in your favor, simply because they work in your favor therefore you don't have to examine them. It's a gross catch-22.