Alex O'Connor no longer vegan

[LoreD]

I don't see that the vegan diet is the issue. Just because you develop a health issue after adopting a vegan diet doesn't mean the vegan diet caused the health issue.

He, also, might have been following a really unhealthy vegan diet. There are plenty of those out there.

 

[g0rph]

I took a peek at the vegan reddit sub.
Wow, the hate. If I was saddened, people there are frothing at the mouth rabid.
I'm starting to think I need a new label. Those people are less like me than all the carnists I know(everyone). It's no wonder the word vegan sometimes carries negative connotations

 

[Brian W]

I took a peek at the vegan reddit sub.
Wow, the hate. If I was saddened, people there are frothing at the mouth rabid.
I'm starting to think I need a new label. Those people are less like me than all the carnists I know(everyone). It's no wonder the word vegan sometimes carries negative connotations

That's why I don't identify as vegan.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

I understand why young people won't listen to us older vegans - I became vegan at 22, and the only people I spoke with were in their 20s. What's the solution?

I have done plastic surgery to look younger and sexier so I can pretend to be 25 and then I heard youngsters are on tick tock or something like that. Look out for my first rap video tomorrow. I am calling it "Meat is cool, dudes. NOT." I expect the video will be a viral success by the afternoon.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

But seriously, whatever the specifics of this exact case there seems to be a pattern here where people go vegetarian or vegan or something similar because of the ethical arguments, then get a combination or cravings/social issues and some minor/moderate health issue which they don't properly try to fix, and then eat animal products again for some non ethical reason, and then try to justify it with an exaggerated health reason and some retrospective ethical analysis which is more for support than illumination.

 

[silva]

I took a peek at the vegan reddit sub.
Wow, the hate. If I was saddened, people there are frothing at the mouth rabid.
I'm starting to think I need a new label. Those people are less like me than all the carnists I know(everyone). It's no wonder the word vegan sometimes carries negative connotations

Why is it that minority groups' obnoxious members can make someone of that group want to identify with the larger, even more obnoxious group?
" oh i'm not like that, I'm a good one"

 

[silva]

But seriously, whatever the specifics of this exact case there seems to be a pattern here where people go vegetarian or vegan or something similar because of the ethical arguments, then get a combination or cravings/social issues and some minor/moderate health issue which they don't properly try to fix, and then eat animal products again for some non ethical reason, and then try to justify it with an exaggerated health reason and some retrospective ethical analysis which is more for support than illumination.

So much is changing when you're first an adult! I went from vegetarian in my teens, mostly vegan, to getting married and losing my direction for many years.
My best advice to those with strong opinions, and emotions, is to work them out, but keep in mind you don't know it all, most often don't know yourself

I'm very grateful that plant based physicians are staying away from ethics and using science to sway people from animals

What really makes me wary of those media vegans who give it up is their insistence of feeling guilty, and had no choice. I've never known any who chose the most ethical choices, like just eating oysters, or cast offs. I've heard more stories of being sure the meat was 'humanely' sourced, but isn't that normally the better choice cuts?

 

[Jamie in Chile]

In this video

of a few years ago he said he loves meat and he hopes someone can convince him he's wrong about the ethical arguments.

It could be a case of ethics vs convenience/pleasure, with a bit of health concern thrown in.

 

[g0rph]

Why is it that minority groups' obnoxious members can make someone of that group want to identify with the larger, even more obnoxious group?
" oh i'm not like that, I'm a good one"

I think that's a rather unfair way of putting it.
I don't regard my family and friends as obnoxious. Veganism where I live is growing, but I still have nobody who I can talk to in real life who shares my moral and ethical stance.
Also, sure being vegan is part of a group, but I wouldn't call the 99% of the planet's homo sapiens who aren't vegan "a group".

 

[g0rph]

In this video

of a few years ago he said he loves meat and he hopes someone can convince him he's wrong about the ethical arguments.

It could be a case of ethics vs convenience/pleasure, with a bit of health concern thrown in.

I did the same thing before I convinced myself that meat and dairy and eggs were essentially evil. i.e. I tried to come up with moral justification for continuing. Right now I am essentially alone. Surrounded by meat, dairy, farms, hunters etc.
But listening to all the arguments and watching real footage from slaughter houses, dairy farms and hatcheries kind of killed any chance that I had of claiming any moral justification.
We don't "need" to kill animals for flesh to be healthy.
We don't need to torture cows for their breast milk
We don't need to breed chickens and in the process simply crush the male chicks live.
We don't need to wear leather or wool or silk.
None of that stuff is necessary. So if we use it then we are unnecessarily causing untold harm to billions of sentient, feeling creatures...because we like the taste, or like the way the jacket fits.

I loved steak. In fact I used to eat it rare. I loved bacon. I loved pork pies and Cumberland sausages. I loved black pudding which is essentially blood and fat. I loved ice-cream and scrambled eggs on toast with real dairy butter.
But I can no longer justify any of that. All of it leads to the breeding, torture and ultimately untimely death of creatures who if I met alive, would rather stroke or take photos of...just like the family dog.

 

[Tom L.]

I'm not familiar with Mr. O'Connor, but I don't watch that much YouTube. I have come across some of BiteSize Vegan's (sp?) vids, and thought they were good, but what got me started toward Veganism was the American Vegan Society.

I didn't watch his video, but hope he "gets it together" and gets back on the Vegan wagon.

 

[Graeme M]

Caveat: I haven't read the comments above, nor do I know who this person is. But I did read his memo about not eating a fully vegan diet. So, my thoughts are the same as ever - so what? If veganism really is an ethical stance, excuted the best one can do in their circumstances, why is he "no longer vegan"? Makes no sense at all. If he is honest about the need for some animal in his diet it doesn't mean he cannot continue to be vegan-friendly in the rest of his actions/choices, plus he can still be consistent with vegan ethics in the choice of animal products he consumes.

On the other hand, it might just be - as I just read - that he is keen on Mikhaila Peterson...

 

[Tom L.]

I did the same thing before I convinced myself that meat and dairy and eggs were essentially evil. i.e. I tried to come up with moral justification for continuing. Right now I am essentially alone. Surrounded by meat, dairy, farms, hunters etc.

You're not alone any more- we're here for you! I know it's not a completely adequate substitute for having real-life fellow travellers, but it's something.

You wrote in your other post that you don't know anybody whom you can talk to in real life who shares your moral and ethical stance. Are there any veg and/or pro-animal groups in your area of Sweden? I thought there were, but the closest I've come to Sweden was when I visited Ireland, Britain, and The Netherlands back in 2000, so I can't say.

 

[g0rph]

You're not alone any more- we're here for you! I know it's not a completely adequate substitute for having real-life fellow travellers, but it's something.

You wrote in your other post that you don't know anybody whom you can talk to in real life who shares your moral and ethical stance. Are there any veg and/or pro-animal groups in your area of Sweden? I thought there were, but the closest I've come to Sweden was when I visited Ireland, Britain, and The Netherlands back in 2000, so I can't say.

Cheers
To be fair, when I say alone I only mean in the idealism sense. I have my friends and family, and whilst they are not vegan (and not likely to go in that direction), I don't really get any typically dumb carnist questions, jibes etc.
The aloneness I feel is from the disconnect from what appears to be the cultural and moral norm.
And I am sure many have made the same analogy, but it's like I took the red pill, and everyone around me is in the Matrix.

 

[Generation V]

g0rph, I understand your disappointment. This person was important in your own journey.

However,
This may not be a popular point of view, but I prefer not to criticize "former vegans"; after all, they have done more than 90+% of the population ever will, in terms of making an effort to better our world.

No one is perfect; we are all in different 'places' in our lives. And my understanding is that most people who drop their 'veganism' don't go back to nearly the same consumption pattern they had before.
In my opinion, that in itself is growth, and is worth celebrating.

In my own mind, I'm much more worried about all the people who still have no idea about the true costs of their meat habit.

How do vegans “better our world”?

Most of my family aren’t vegan. My aunt is a social worker for single parent families and she’s not a vegan. Am I better than her?

 

[g0rph]

How do vegans “better our world”?

Most of my family aren’t vegan. My aunt is a social worker for single parent families and she’s not a vegan. Am I better than her?

I have had this discussion before somewhere else.
Of course people aren't just vegan or non vegan. We are the sum of thousands /millions of different characteristics.
Are we charitable, kind, loyal, mean, calm, helpful, spiteful, violent etc etc.
And each of those characteristics can be broken down... If we are violent, do we act on it, or keep it reigned in?
If we are altruistic how far would we go or put ourselves out to help others?

People are the sum of all these things.

One of them is whether we pay for the breeding, torture and ultimate death of other sentient beings.
Those that do this the least definitely make the world better...for those beings that are the victims.

So no, being vegan doesn't make me "better" than my SO who is not vegan, but it makes me better when it comes down to the ethics of how we treat non-human animals.

 

[Brian W]

I have had this discussion before somewhere else.
Of course people aren't just vegan or non vegan. We are the sum of thousands /millions of different characteristics.
Are we charitable, kind, loyal, mean, calm, helpful, spiteful, violent etc etc.
And each of those characteristics can be broken down... If we are violent, do we act on it, or keep it reigned in?
If we are altruistic how far would we go or put ourselves out to help others?

Yes, reality is a blur of information, not a set of predefined fences that have written-in-stone labels. The heart of it is do you care enough to make some kind of effort where you see a need.

 

[Tom L.]

Cheers
To be fair, when I say alone I only mean in the idealism sense. I have my friends and family, and whilst they are not vegan (and not likely to go in that direction), I don't really get any typically dumb carnist questions, jibes etc.
The aloneness I feel is from the disconnect from what appears to be the cultural and moral norm.
And I am sure many have made the same analogy, but it's like I took the red pill, and everyone around me is in the Matrix.

@g0rph Ah. I didn't mean to say you were totally alone- I understood you were saying that the people you're close to in real life aren't veg. I'm in the same boat; most of the folks I know who are veg are those I met when I went looking to meet vegetarian people. I still love my non-vegetarian friends and relatives just as much as I did before I went vegetarian.

But I don't think the situation is the same as in the Matrix movie: the omni folks I know perceive reality clearly- but unfortunately (VERY unfortunately) they see most animals as not having intrinsic worth. I think they know that animals can feel, are aware, and enjoy their own existences (but I don't think they grasp that at least animals also feel love). They believe that animals can be used in ways that kill those animals, but so long as all this is done "humanely"(???!!!!), and the animals are content so long as they live, this is not ethically wrong. (Please don't ask me to explain. I can't.)

 

[g0rph]

@g0rph Ah. I didn't mean to say you were totally alone- I understood you were saying that the people you're close to in real life aren't veg. I'm in the same boat; most of the folks I know who are veg are those I met when I went looking to meet vegetarian people. I still love my non-vegetarian friends and relatives just as much as I did before I went vegetarian.

But I don't think the situation is the same as in the Matrix movie: the omni folks I know perceive reality clearly- but unfortunately (VERY unfortunately) they see most animals as not having intrinsic worth. I think they know that animals can feel, are aware, and enjoy their own existences (but I don't think they grasp that at least animals also feel love). They believe that animals can be used in ways that kill those animals, but so long as all this is done "humanely"(???!!!!), and the animals are content so long as they live, this is not ethically wrong. (Please don't ask me to explain. I can't.)

I understand you can't explain. But I kind of need to view it like in The Matrix in order not to become what I hate more than carnists...a frothing at the mouth evangelical vegan. I do not want to be that person...for my own psychological well-being. I am too old to become an activist and possibly too comfortable in my ageing years. I can do what "I" can but must imagine everyone around me as at least, blinkered in some way.

 

[Brian W]

At last, after all the "we know best" evangelical, fundamentalist vegan videos on this and the hate comments they inspired, a more sensible approach from a vegan who is sympathetic to human struggles.