When does human life start?

[veganDreama]

I was wondering about this. I'm pro life except I don't think human life starts at conception. More likely it starts when the babies heart starts beating or when the baby's brain is developed which happens quite early on. I've read some accounts saying foetuses feel pain at about 8 weeks and some who claim foetus's don't feel pain until 27 weeks . I don't think that's true and even if it were their are abortions that happen after 27 weeks and that is very bad. I feel more strongly about late term abortion.

However I'm all for contraception, sex education, and gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender rights which some pro life groups are against so I can't support them without compromising other issues such as gay rights which I also feel strongly about.

I want to find a secular pro life group that isn't against gay people and wouldn't prevent a rape victim from getting Emergency contraception because it's 'abortified'. I've read that the morning after pill only stops the embryo from being able to get implanted in the womb. So does nothing if implation has already occurred. I've not read anything that convinces me that embryo's feel anything or the human soul enters at that point.

What do other people think?

What do other people think?

 

[Forest Nymph]

I think that human life starts sometime between conception and birth, but I believe it begins early on, from what I've studied. The same scientists who tell you that late term abortion is just fine are likely the same scientists who will argue it's fine to eat pigs. Scientists are people too, and with issues like this, their personal morality (or lack thereof) will factor into their assumptions about consciousness, just as a geologist can potentially become a climatologist or an oil company employee.

Peter Singer argues that killing sentient animals is crueler than killing a new born, but all I have to do is think of a newborn kitten to see the flaws in what he's saying...though I get what he wants to argue for is the actual, conscious experience of suffering that older children or more mature non-human animals have. If you build your entire argument for veganism on degree of consciousness, well, I guess that could work, and while I respect Singer deeply for other reasons, I think this particular axis of focus is faulty .Like building a card-house of logic on a bad foundation.

For me, respect for life has to apply to the weakest and the smallest, that's why I think on an inherent level that any meat consumption is far more vile than lacto-ovo vegetarianism. We can talk all day about the wrongs of the dairy industry, but I trust more in the conscience and intelligence of a person who instinctively refrains from killing directly, from actual flesh and blood, there's something very creepily objectifying about meat that doesn't exist in someone thinking cheese comes from happy cows.

SO....I apply this sort of thinking into my morality about abortion. I personally would not have an abortion, but I believe STRONGLY in contraception and adoption and planned parenting and choosing childfree as well. As for other people I can't tell them what to do, but anything after a first trimester abortion seems a bit sick to me.

 

[Hog]

I do not think that making abortion illegal would do much good. It is too easy to do a home abortion.

I angered my mom and grandma because I was pro choice when I was young. Then I got engaged to a young lady who was pro life. Actually, the first thing I said to my mom was, "I am seeing this girl who is pro life." My mom was elated and said you have my permission to marry her. It was the ultimate joke on me.

My pro life wife had the worst guilt trip after she had a miscarriage. She felt like she killed the baby.

I found a middle ground that works for me. My wife and I contributed our sons' baby clothing and furniture to charities that help women who might otherwise have abortions. When my mom and grandma died, we made modest financial contributions to these charities. In addition, I would never tell my wife to get an abortion.

 

[amberfunk]

Why of all things is this on a vegan forum? This has nothing to do with veganism.

I am pro choice and always will be. It is not up to the government or anyone else to tell another woman what she can and cannot do with her body. I really hate ignorant people that spout nonsense about a fetus' right to life and that the woman is a horrible person, *****, murderer, etc. You have no idea the amount of thought and emotion it takes to make the decision to have an abortion and the toll it takes on someone who has one and is trying to make the best decision ultimately for them, their family and the unborn. And no it's not easy to do an in home abortion, it's highly dangerous and most wind up killing the woman as well. Abortion rights should be protected.

 

[Lou]

I'm a big fan of science fiction. and one of my favorite types of science fiction is the ones where they explore how ethics is influenced by society and vice-versa.

In one short story over-population has taken the abortion issue off the table. EVERYONE gets a contraceptive implant. In order to have it removed you have to apply for a license, take a class, and pass a test. I don't think this was in the short story but I would add a DNA screening as well.

The story starts off with a young couple who have applied for a baby, taken all the classes, tests and got to take a robot baby home for the week. As they are discussing their week as they wait for their number to be called the reader realizes that this was truly a baby from hell. Colicky, teething, sick, finicky, and lots of sleepless nights.

They assume that the robot baby has recorded everything and they are also pretty sure they must have failed this test. Then they called and meet with the clerk. the clerk takes the robot baby and basically just makes sure it is undamaged. Then the couple asks what the next step is. The clerk is dumbfounded and admits that no one has ever returned the robot baby and STILL wanted to have a baby. She has to call her supervisor to see what the next step is.

Barack Obama once said no one is pro-abortion. And I agree. But women's rights are human rights and that includes the choice to have an abortion. Plenty of men have taken pro-life positions. So i don't think its wrong for me to take a pro-choice position even tho it will never be something i have to choose.

Trying to determine when life begins is sort of besides the point in my opinion. Abortion is best off left as a decision between a woman and her doctor. I don't think we need to get into the details.

Although if pressed I would say that there should be no time limit to abortions. I would even put on the table retro-active abortions till the child reaches .... i don't know .... 18? Really could change the landscape of parenting. Kids who misbehave could be taken to the clinic. (JOKING).

All joking aside, although I don't wish to see an earth where human rights need to be suspended, but wouldn't it be cool if people had to take a class and pass a test to have a kid.

 

[Lou]

I do not think that making abortion illegal would do much good. It is too easy to do a home abortion.

Just read an article that talks about some new technology.

Here is a good quote from the article.

Abortion medication provided by mail, administered by a practitioner working via videoconference, could safely enlarge the geographic footprint of clinics and providers. “Many clinics already use telemedicine for other services,” says Elizabeth Raymond, a researcher at Gynuity Health Projects who leads the project. “Our study validates that this is a feasible, safe, and effective approach.”​

I got my first medical marijuana card via a teleconference. Which was set up with an iOS app. Yeah, the meeting with the doc was sort of a joke. But the prescription and marijuana was real.

Telemedicine (and really i had no idea that was a word till now) is a rapidly growing field.

Telemedicine Makes It Safe to Get Abortion Drugs in the Mail

Abortion over the internet can be an effective, practical alternative for women in areas where clinics are scarce.

www.wired.com

 

[Hog]

I have a cousin who spread his seed far and wide. He said he was pro life. I could never quite understand that one.
I have another cousin who felt pressured by a boyfriend to have an abortion. The boyfriend was pro choice. The boyfriend was making a choice for the girl.

I would like to believe that I would not dictate to my wife what to do if she got pregnant. She is an adult.

 

[Lou]

Why of all things is this on a vegan forum? This has nothing to do with veganism.

I think a lot of people assume vegans would be pro-life. Save animals/save babies.

I think a lot of vegans are pro-choice.
Women's rights/animal rights. Same thing.

 

[Nekodaiden]

I think a lot of people assume vegans would be pro-life. Save animals/save babies.

I think a lot of vegans are pro-choice.
Women's rights/animal rights. Same thing.

But no infant's rights.

I'm pro-life and I reject the argument that it is a woman's right because it is her body. Once you are pregnant, you are a host to another developing human - and it is therefore no longer just "your body".

That being said - I do agree with the statement that this issue has nothing to do with the vegan topic.

 

[mavrick45]

good thing infants are both legally and scientifically distinct from fetus's.

never in the history of human civilization has an infant or baby ever been aborted.

infanticide is a thing but it's also a crime.

abortion is neither infanticide nor is it "baby killing"

 

[Forest Nymph]

As a vegan I feel that I am pro-life. I don't do anything "active" to support Planned Parenthood or any abortion laws. BUT on the other hand...I see the problem with over-population, and a problem with me telling other women what to do with their bodies. Just because I can't bring myself to have an abortion doesn't mean I have a right to tell another human female to die in a back alley from a botched coat hanger abortion (I have read AWFUL AWFUL SICK reports of illegal abortion operations....aaaaaand....I'm all for the legal alternative).

I do not support late-term abortion under any circumstance aside from mother's immediate death (we're talking car accident or terminal illness or literal death).

I cannot approve any abortion past the 1st trimester. On the other hand, I'm not going to go out and try to shut down Planned Parenthood, who basically supplies birth control and condoms to a lot of people NOT having abortions, and I'm not going to actively try to stop other women from having abortions (unless they are 3rd trimester).

There's a whole spectrum of veganism and feminism that is actually pro-life. It's not funny or strange for me to hold this opinion, even as a FAR LEFTIST. (I'm really far left, like Noam Chomsky left).

But I'm as a scientist able to separate my personal values from other people's choices in this matter. I know there are Catholics who think I'm a hypocrite for feeling more strongly about factory farming than abortion, but I'm of the Singer school....an adult cow or even fully born calf has more awareness than a 1st trimester fetus. I'm not encouraging infanticide. Like I said ...no 3rd trimester....I really do base my ethics on things like awareness and suffering.

 

[Nekodaiden]

good thing infants are both legally and scientifically distinct from fetus's.

never in the history of human civilization has an infant or baby ever been aborted.

infanticide is a thing but it's also a crime.

abortion is neither infanticide nor is it "baby killing"

It's still killing human life. The distinction between
fetus and infant may be a legally binding one, but that
doesn't make it moral.

I voted at conception. It may "only be a clump of cells", but
so is a person's hand, arm and any other developed body part.
Some otherwise developed people are missing hands, legs, arms,
teeth, hair, eyesight, hearing, proper reasoning and memory (dementia),
the ability to breath without support, or even live without it

...and yet all are human.

The barely conceived human is no different in respect of either it's life
or humanity, except that it's development is arrested by the
taking of it's life.

 

[mavrick45]

my arm doesnt have moral integrity

 

[Tadpole]

Why of all things is this on a vegan forum? This has nothing to do with veganism.

I am pro choice and always will be. It is not up to the government or anyone else to tell another woman what she can and cannot do with her body. I really hate ignorant people that spout nonsense about a fetus' right to life and that the woman is a horrible person, *****, murderer, etc. You have no idea the amount of thought and emotion it takes to make the decision to have an abortion and the toll it takes on someone who has one and is trying to make the best decision ultimately for them, their family and the unborn. And no it's not easy to do an in home abortion, it's highly dangerous and most wind up killing the woman as well. Abortion rights should be protected.

Completely contradictory. This is the problem - once you are pregnant there is another body involved. Conception and pregnancy results in a human life believe it or not, crazy I know? Therefore once this happens abortion is in no way a decision that a woman is able to make about their own body, it is simply the termination of another body which is already human and full of life from that moment.
I hope that sounds awful because it is and there is no other way of saying it.
Abortion is absolutely relevant to veganism as it supports taking the life of another living being in a deliberate/malicuous/regretable way.
This isn't about tattoos and what you get to do with your body let's get real here.

 

[Tadpole]

As a vegan I feel that I am pro-life. I don't do anything "active" to support Planned Parenthood or any abortion laws. BUT on the other hand...I see the problem with over-population, and a problem with me telling other women what to do with their bodies. Just because I can't bring myself to have an abortion doesn't mean I have a right to tell another human female to die in a back alley from a botched coat hanger abortion (I have read AWFUL AWFUL SICK reports of illegal abortion operations....aaaaaand....I'm all for the legal alternative).

I do not support late-term abortion under any circumstance aside from mother's immediate death (we're talking car accident or terminal illness or literal death).

I cannot approve any abortion past the 1st trimester. On the other hand, I'm not going to go out and try to shut down Planned Parenthood, who basically supplies birth control and condoms to a lot of people NOT having abortions, and I'm not going to actively try to stop other women from having abortions (unless they are 3rd trimester).

There's a whole spectrum of veganism and feminism that is actually pro-life. It's not funny or strange for me to hold this opinion, even as a FAR LEFTIST. (I'm really far left, like Noam Chomsky left).

But I'm as a scientist able to separate my personal values from other people's choices in this matter. I know there are Catholics who think I'm a hypocrite for feeling more strongly about factory farming than abortion, but I'm of the Singer school....an adult cow or even fully born calf has more awareness than a 1st trimester fetus. I'm not encouraging infanticide. Like I said ...no 3rd trimester....I really do base my ethics on things like awareness and suffering.

Typical over thinking of a clear cut issue and utter nonsense for anyone to read. Relating this to a vegan viewpoint, you have basically said that it's ok to eat eggs but horrific to kill and eat chickens? I can't even begin to understand the origins of this argument.
I hope you are not claiming to be a scientist in any professional degree as you are clearly unable to remain objective to avoid projecting your own warped opinions on what are indeed very serious issues.

 

[Sax]

I support women's right to choose abortion and I'd like to see barriers to access removed, along with better contraceptive options and reproductive education.

One of my exes got pregnant and in consultation with me decided to get an abortion. I've never felt any regret or remorse. 100% the right decision for us and I'm glad the government wasn't involved in making that choice.

 

[Hog]

A pro life Catholic priest once said to me, "I have been against abortion my entire life. Whenever I look at you, I think there must be an exception to the rule."

 

[Vanille]

Just here to see who the decent people are...

Pro-choice, keyword: choice
Don't like it? Keep every child you conceive
Don't like it and you're male? Never have sex unless you encounter a woman who wants your babies

I can think of enough circumstances where the mother's wellbeing matters more than the unconscious fetus, even if it's alive, it doesn't even know it's alive so it won't suffer while the mother's life can get ruined. Late-term abortions are illegal pretty much anywhere unless the mother's health is in serious danger. Trust me, I met several women and girls who got pregnant by accident and most kept it... But a rape victim would beg on her knees to get it removed. And what about women who use proper protection as they really don't want it and still get pregnant? The "put it up for adoption" argument angers me too, she still has to go through an hormonal rollercoaster and the pain of giving birth when she didn't want it and tried to prevent it. Now imagine a rape victim who gets reminded of it every second, a 9 month sentence full of pain and shame, getting murdered sounds more fun... Let people make their own decisions regarding their (mental) health, I thought vegans of all people would understand this...
Also none of y'all seem to think of how unwanted pregnancy would affect the child... I know a few people close to me who were unwanted kids and suffered depression for ages because of it... And now just imagine finding out you're rapist spawn...

And it doesn't even concern me personally as I'm a lesbian (and semi-asexual or whatever they call it) on birth control (I like to know when I get my period) so IF I were to have sex one day, it'd be with a woman and IF I ever get raped, I'm still protected (and would rush for plan B regardless) I just feel so strong about it being a woman who loves women and witnessed my cousin suffering from her childhood pregnancy...

How pro-LIFE are you even when you care more about an unconscious fetus than a woman who can feel pain and emotion? Morals my ***...

 

[Vanille]

And as for being vegan...

"I would assume most vegans are pro choice, given that the general stance is that any unwarranted control of the reproductive system is wrong. this is a big part of many vegans’ problem with the dairy industry - control over reproductive system and forced pregnancy, birth, etc"

Agree, also, we have an issue with pain and suffering, but it's okay to let women suffer? The fetus won't, not in the earlier stages.

Being pro-choice is vegan, forcing suffering upon women makes you no better than any meat eater out there. Those are btw living, conscious animals that get killed, often mistreated prior to that, in no way the same as killing an unconscious and senseless fetus.

 

[veganDreama]

I see fetus as sentiment too and they DO feel pain and it must be incredibly painful to be aborted. Especially for older foetuses past viability. Unfortunately their are places in the world that a woman can kill their fetus up until birth and that is definitely infanticide. I support the heartbeat bill that's coming to pass in some states of America.

And you would be wrong to assume it's a woman's right because women who have had abortions are 6 times more likely to commit suicide. So women don't gain from having abortions. The only people who gain from abortion are iresponsible men who pressurise their girlfriend to kill the baby and the whole abortion industry that profit from a woman's wrong choice.

As for rape, why should the fetus get killed just because her father was a rapist. I'm all for a rape victim having a morning after pill to stop the pregnancy going a head in the first place but if that fails then the woman will just have to have the baby and put it up for adoption.

I don't understand why any vegan would be pro abortion. After all foetuses are just as sentiment as any other animal. How can we speak up for one oppressed group (other animals) and not care about another oppressed group (human foetuses).