Vegans Have a Moral Duty to Have Children

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Brian W

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No society is perfect, but some are better than others.

I'm not so sure about that. Of course you can single out issues where a society is better than others but often that is very superficial. I don't think banning meat adverts, for example, is going to do a lot of good while the whole capitalist/consumerist mindset is continually encouraged.
 
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Huckleberry

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I'm not so sure about that. Of course you can single out issues where a society is better than others but often that is very superficial. I don't think banning meat adverts, for example, is going to do a lot of good while the whole capitalist/consumerist mindset is continually encouraged.
Some societies support this kind of farming and others don’t:


Advertising bans worked to reduce tobacco use.


I’ll also point out that socialist countries are responsible for environmental disasters:


 
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Brian W

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Advertising bans worked to reduce tobacco use.


I’ll also point out that socialist countries are responsible for environmental disasters:


"Socialist" countries also function on capitalism. Banning tobacco ads probably halted the uptake of the habit but wouldn't have done anything to stop existing smokers. Meat is a whole different ballgame because most people are born into meat eating families and do not need advertising to get them started.
 

Huckleberry

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Some societies are not friendly to the environment.




 
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VeganRachel

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Hi, the first thing I think of is anti-vegans. Hopefully, THEY will not have lots of children so they can
raise them as a carnivore to oppress vegans. Kind of a joke.
Instead you can adopt a dog at a shelter, especially on the "kill" day, and raise it/them as a healthy
vegan doggie.
 

Huckleberry

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Yes, I think if there were vegan products that were higher quality to better simulate the flavors & textures of meat, while also offering a lower price than meat, and being of comparable nutritional value... I think people who would otherwise eat meat would make the change.

One reason people eat meat right now is because no such meat alternative of sufficiently high quality & sufficiently low price exists today. While Impossible Foods and Beyond Meat make fairly good meat substitutes, they are more expensive than meat from animals. Thus, many consumers aren't interested.



It likely wouldn't take much. Taxes on animal products to make vegan substitute foods more price-competitive (or just subsidizing the vegan food substitutes) would probably be sufficient to make a big change in dietary habits. Especially when paired with a public education campaign to alert the public to the many problems caused by animal product consumption.

It's a similar public policy model to what the government already uses to discourage people from smoking tobacco. And that was pretty effective at dramatically reducing tobacco consumption despite the highly addictive nature of tobacco products.
I think meat substitutes are expensive because its consumers are Yuppies who will pay high prices. Meat substitutes possess a superabundance of cachet. Time to move down market.
 
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Huckleberry

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You think that people eat meat for want of vegan products? Nutritious, tasty vegan food has been available since time immemorial, yet we are still surrounded by meat-eaters. As for government policies, I shudder to think what kind of government could make meat eaters go vegan.

Only moral conviction will make omnivores give up their meat. That cannot come from government nor from supermarket shelves.
Let’s be serious and realistic. Government should get involved. How about meat substitutes mandated in public institutions like prisons, hospitals, schools? How about bans on meat advertisement? How about taxing meat?
 

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Let’s be serious and realistic. Government should get involved. How about meat substitutes mandated in public institutions like prisons, hospitals, schools? How about bans on meat advertisement? How about taxing meat?
In many places vegan food is available in prisons, hospitals, schools...

But c'mon, there would be Huge Pushback if it was mandated.
I doubt if there would be a public outcry if we banned meat commercials. although some media might resent the loss of revenue. And I'm sure Fox News would act like we had just killed their mother.
And as I have mentioned in numerous other posts there is no reason to tax meat. Again the public outcry fueled by Fox News would be intense. However, the entire livestock industry benefits from subsidies. Congress would not have to enact any kind of new taxes - they would just have to eliminate or reduce the subsidies. In fact, if done correctly it could be sold as a money saving policy.

Subsidies to the livestock industry came close to 10 Billion last year. Ten years ago it was only half that. As a start we could just go back to the levels in 2010.

Without subsidies some estimate that the cost of meat would double.





 

Huckleberry

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In many places vegan food is available in prisons, hospitals, schools...

But c'mon, there would be Huge Pushback if it was mandated.
I doubt if there would be a public outcry if we banned meat commercials. although some media might resent the loss of revenue. And I'm sure Fox News would act like we had just killed their mother.
And as I have mentioned in numerous other posts there is no reason to tax meat. Again the public outcry fueled by Fox News would be intense. However, the entire livestock industry benefits from subsidies. Congress would not have to enact any kind of new taxes - they would just have to eliminate or reduce the subsidies. In fact, if done correctly it could be sold as a money saving policy.

Subsidies to the livestock industry came close to 10 Billion last year. Ten years ago it was only half that. As a start we could just go back to the levels in 2010.

Without subsidies some estimate that the cost of meat would double.





I’m not sure why you are so timid. When slavery was abolished there was a lot of “pushback”, but the abolitionists didn’t cower in their basements. It’s time to be bold. Meat substitutes taste better and better. A certain amount of persuasion and even coercion is needed to change people’s habits.

Do you want animal cruelty on an industrial scale?


Do you want destruction of the whole natural world?


Do you want the Greenland ice sheet to melt?

If you control the government and the big companies, especially the media, you can accomplish so much! If the Democrat Party would just focus on population reduction and ending meat consumption instead of, for example, propping up that racist Netanyahu, I think we would succeed.

 
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Lou

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I’m not sure why you are so timid. When slavery was abolished there was a lot of “pushback”, but the abolitionists didn’t cower in their basements. It’s time to be bold.

I have no argument with your facts but....

Slavery has been made illegal in many places over time but it still exists. (1)

in the US, after the passage of the 19th ademendment and Lincoln's Proclamation, Slavery was still in effect for 2.5 years. (2)

Speaking of a lot of pushback - Don't forget here in the US it took the civil war to end slavery.

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Huckleberry

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I have no argument with your facts but....

Slavery has been made illegal in many places over time but it still exists. (1)

in the US, after the passage of the 19th ademendment and Lincoln's Proclamation, Slavery was still in effect for 2.5 years. (2)

Speaking of a lot of pushback - Don't forget here in the US it took the civil war to end slavery.

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I don’t think the meat-eaters are going to start a civil war lol.
 
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Sax

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I don’t think the meat-eaters are going to start a civil war lol.

Hmmm. I'm struggling to see a ban on meat/slaughter not leading to violence actually. Maybe not a civil war but I don't think it's that far fetched.
 
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Lou

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^ and that was just the ire based on a report.
Imagine if Biden actually banned meat.
Although, yeah, part of me would like to see that but then ...

meanwhile I'm sorry but we have gotten way off topic.
 

Huckleberry

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It’s kind of funny that you are so terrified by Fox News.

Conservatives get worked up over the death penalty, but there’s currently a moratorium on federal executions.

Many conservatives were also worked up over Covid lockdowns, yet we had lockdowns.

Please understand that the establishment is now almost completely on our side. I think you’d be surprised at how much we can get away with.
 
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Lou

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I think you’d be surprised at how much we can get away with.

Yes I would be. I still remember 2016. when the conservatives got a crooked TV star elected. And we are still suffering the consequences.

Could the democrats lose elections over meat? I'm not willing to gamble on it.
 

Huckleberry

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Hmmm. I'm struggling to see a ban on meat/slaughter not leading to violence actually. Maybe not a civil war but I don't think it's that far fetched.
First of all I never suggested a total ban. Second I think you are overestimating the power of the meat-eaters. If some meat-eaters committed acts of violence they would suffer the penalty.

 
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Huckleberry

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Yes I would be. I still remember 2016. when the conservatives got a crooked TV star elected. And we are still suffering the consequences.

Could the democrats lose elections over meat? I'm not willing to gamble on it.
I guess I’m more concerned with accomplishing something than just getting Democrats elected. After all many Democrats are extremely corrupt and completely worthless.





Why be afraid of a meat tax?


 
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